User Tag List

First 6141516

Results 151 to 155 of 155

  1. #151
    meh Salomé's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    10,540

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    However it is an hypothesis that can be falsified so it is a scientific hypothesis.
    Like most of the speculations arising from evolutionary psychology, it cannot be disconfirmed by data (nor can it be confirmed). It is therefore, not scientific.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #152
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    3,095

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    However it is an hypothesis that can be falsified so it is a scientific hypothesis.

    But if you take the trouble to read his book you might discover the extraordinary depth and richness of his hypothesis.

    Even if his hypothesis is fasified, it has already enriched us.

    However if his hypothesis is not falsified it succeeds in falsifying most of the ways we think about ourselves.
    You claim to beleive in science and not "religion". Yet you also claim that even if the hypothesis is unscientific, it is true because it will "falsify what we think about ourselves"...meaning that to you it is, in a sense a religion and not science. Which basically means that you too, have the religious outlook you claim to discredit.

  3. #153
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    There is a lot in this thread that is approaching consciousness as a binary - either you have it or you don't. Consider the many different levels and forms of consciousness we as human beings experience. There is deep sleep without dreams, without a knowledge of the passage of time, but with the potential to respond to more extreme external stimuli. There is REM sleep which is an internal consciousness, or rather "subconsciousness" that responds to emotions and sensations, but is oblivious to the outside world. There are varying levels of consciousness we play with through hypnosis and mind altering substances, or even meditation. There is a dazed form of consciousness we experience in situations like driving home, but once arriving having no memory of it. There is a dull-drones of habitual behaviors as we ride a train to work, never noticing if Joshua Bells happens to be playing his violin in the station. We also have moments of intense concentration and awareness.

    With such a richness of experiences with varying levels of consciousness, how is it that one cannot consider varying levels existing in other species? I have seen rabbits in a resting state with eyes open that strongly suggests a very low level of consciousness, or the look in an Emu's eyes that feels like a response to shapes and colors, but feels intuitively flat, but then there are also moments of deep awareness seen in animal eyes. I get that these last comments are personal, intuitive, and empathetic, but I can't wait until neuroscience continues its work with brain scans to determine the nature of consciousness and brain processing in other species. Some images for consideration:

    A painting by Michael, a gorilla who learned over 600 words in sign language titled, "I, Myself, Good"



    A video in which Michael signs about his family:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXKsPqQ0Ycc

    Also, as a second point, I've noticed we are discussing: consciousness, self-awarness, and empathy. There is an assumption here that these three are intricately link, and I can understand that assumption, but what if they are not?

    1. Consider our extensive discussions on the psychopath who we can presume has consciousness and self-awareness, but not empathy (well, theory of mind, but not affective empathy as @Salome pointed out in that thread). Also consider some degree of autism and Aspbergers causing consistent or momentary lack of theory of mind in other individuals, but maintaining consciousness and self-awareness.

    2. Now consider the possibility of a strongly pack oriented animal who could conceivably have consciousness and empathy, but not self-awareness. If the notion of canines being conscious is a problem for some, then at least consider this theoretically that a sense of self could exist at the group level and not the level of the individual.

    3. Now consider a human dream state in which the symbols reveal truths about self, or where there is a dream with a clear concept of the self being present and feelings of empathy for other components of the dream, but it lacks wakeful consciousness. Is this a possible cognitive state to possess self-awareness and empathy, but not wakeful consciousness?

    My point is that proving the presence or absence of one of these attributes may not prove the presence or absence of the other attributes of consciousness, self-awareness, and empathy.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #154
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,536
    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    You claim to beleive in science and not "religion". Yet you also claim that even if the hypothesis is unscientific, it is true because it will "falsify what we think about ourselves"...meaning that to you it is, in a sense a religion and not science. Which basically means that you too, have the religious outlook you claim to discredit.
    I am being misrepresented.

    I do not claim a hypothesis is true.

    And I do not claim to believe in science and not religion.

  5. #155
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    isfp
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Posts
    8,595

    Default

    One thing I have noticed in this discussion and in some of the scientific experiments regarding animal consciousness is this:

    We do not understand consciousness or how exactly it is defined.

    Because of this there is a tendency to pair it to another attribute, construct some manner of testing to prove whether or not this attribute exists in a creature. In the past science has paired consciousness with self-awareness. Correct me if I'm wrong @Mole, but it sounds like the author of the book you recommend is also pairing consciousness with certain human attributes that emerged 3,000 years ago. How do we know attribute X has a direct correlation to consciousness? Some have also said language does, so where does that leave feral children?

    It surprises me somewhat that the assumptions that underly both of these steps are not more fully questioned. Is it verifiable or even likely enough to just assume that a demonstration of self awareness is proof of consciousness? Is it reasonable to think that failing a self awareness test proves the absence of consciousness? The second assumption is that a particular test accurately demonstrates the presence or absence of the particular attribute. I mentioned earlier the problem with having animals recognize their image in a mirror as proof of self awareness, when it is common for animals to identify self based on other sensory inputs like odor, sounds, movements.

    I'd be curious to hear others' input: are these assumed correlations between attribute X and consciousness a logical fallacy? Is it a compensation for not understanding consciousness in the first place, or am I off in questioning this?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

Similar Threads

  1. [NT] Who are your best non-NT friends?
    By mbeerti in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 193
    Last Post: 10-13-2014, 12:09 AM
  2. Non-human persons
    By UniqueMixture in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 06-29-2012, 08:03 PM
  3. What are the most sought after personality types? and the ones you detest...
    By curiousel in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: 08-11-2010, 10:06 AM
  4. Are you a socially active person?
    By theadoor in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: 05-26-2010, 12:41 AM
  5. [ENFP] Are NFs overly non offensive ?
    By Virtual ghost in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 10-13-2009, 05:04 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO