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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And the Sun appears to go round the Earth, but we have inferred that the Earth goes round the Sun.

    And this is how science has progressed: from appearance, through inference, to scientific fact.
    because we got proof that the earth goes around the sun - what proof do you have that animals exhibiting symptoms of consciousness are merely mechanical zombies mimicking the external aspects of such? proof can discount the appearance stemming from evidence, but lacking any, reason goes by the evidence.

  2. #142
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    I dont see how cosnciousness could have arisen only 3,000 years ago, as there is proof of civilization much older than that.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    I dont see how cosnciousness could have arisen only 3,000 years ago, as there is proof of civilization much older than that.
    According to Julian Jaynes civilizations older than about 3,000 years used the bicameral mind which wasn't conscious.

    But about 3,000 years ago the bicameral mind broke down and we became conscious.

  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    because we got proof that the earth goes around the sun - what proof do you have that animals exhibiting symptoms of consciousness are merely mechanical zombies mimicking the external aspects of such? proof can discount the appearance stemming from evidence, but lacking any, reason goes by the evidence.
    It seems we have two ways of thinking. The first is intuitive and spoken and goes by appearance. The second is counter-intuitive and literate and goes by data.

    The first way of thinking came first and gave us our institutions and our habits of mind, while the second way of thinking is very recent and has given us science, liberal democracy, modern economics and modern medicine.

    In other words we have the clash between modernity and traditional ways of thinking.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    According to Julian Jaynes civilizations older than about 3,000 years used the bicameral mind which wasn't conscious.

    But about 3,000 years ago the bicameral mind broke down and we became conscious.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And this is how science has progressed: from appearance, through inference, to scientific fact.
    Please explain how Julian Jaynes proved his speculation to be scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Just like I said, I think we don't know enough yet.

    A different brain necessarily means different emotions, different ways to express intelligence, or to communicate.
    There is no necessarily about it, especially when we are talking about those structures beneath the neo-cortex that form the limbic system - responsible for emotion. We have inherited most of our brains from earlier mammals. "Necessarily" we have much in common.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #147
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    Julian Jaynes and Consciousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Please explain how Julian Jaynes proved his speculation to be scientific fact.
    Well, Julian didn't prove his speculation to be scientific fact - it remains an hypothesis.

    However it is and interesting and fertile hypothesis, particularly as it is one of the few hypotheses to address the question of the origin of religion.

    And of course the hypothesis is even more ambitious than addressing the origin if religion as it also addressed the origin of consciousness.

    There is a Julian Jaynes Society that pursues these matters at http://www.julianjaynes.org/

    And I think you can find the book at http://s-f-walker.org.uk/pubsebooks/...sciousness.pdf

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Well, Julian didn't prove his speculation to be scientific fact - it remains an hypothesis.
    Quite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #149
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Well, Julian didn't prove his speculation to be scientific fact - it remains an hypothesis.
    No kidding.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    No kidding.
    However it is an hypothesis that can be falsified so it is a scientific hypothesis.

    But if you take the trouble to read his book you might discover the extraordinary depth and richness of his hypothesis.

    Even if his hypothesis is fasified, it has already enriched us.

    However if his hypothesis is not falsified it succeeds in falsifying most of the ways we think about ourselves.

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