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  1. #91
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    However dogs and cats and possums are successful parasites in that they gain more in reproduction than we do. And being such successful parasites, they give the impression of being our friends so we can project onto them our inter-subjectivity and treat them as members of our family, our human family.

    Parasites are enormously successful in the natural world, and can even alter the behaviour of the host.

    Hard though it is to believe, we are infested with parasites: dogs, cats and possums; hey, and we love it, our parasites are so clever they get us to love them, so they can reproduce.
    Who parasitises whom? It's just a question of perspective.

    Big fleas have little fleas,
    Upon their backs to bite 'em,
    And little fleas have lesser fleas,
    and so, ad infinitum.

    And the great fleas, themselves, in turn
    Have greater fleas to go on;
    While these again have greater still,
    And greater still, and so on.


    Humans are simply parasites higher up the food chain. Unlike most parasites though, they haven't learned how not to destroy their hosts. So one might say they're the dumbest parasites that ever drew breath.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Dolphins have more empathy than we do, therefore, we should really make them our Lords and Masters.
    Quick, someone write a new Creation myth.
    i'm not saying the hierarchy is based on capacity for empathy, i'm saying that from our egocentric perspective as humans bound by human experience, we are capable of experiencing more empathy towards dolphins and monkeys and dogs and elephants then we are towards fleas and ants and digestive bacteria.

    my point was the continuity and diversity of value argued about in the few posts above mine isn't intrinsic to the universe or their abilities or anything defined outside of us, it's intrinsic to the human perspective - the difference isn't inherent to them but in our own capacity to emphasize with the experience expressed by various entities.

  3. #93
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    i'm not saying the hierarchy is based on capacity for empathy, i'm saying that from our egocentric perspective as humans bound by human experience, we are capable of experiencing more empathy towards dolphins and monkeys and dogs and elephants then we are towards fleas and ants and digestive bacteria.

    my point was the continuity and diversity of value argued about in the few posts above mine isn't intrinsic to the universe or their abilities or anything defined outside of us, it's intrinsic to the human perspective - the difference isn't inherent to them but in our own capacity to emphasize with the experience expressed by various entities.
    I agree with this, actually. I might be using the word "intrinsic" incorrectly. What I mostly mean is that I think it is possible to place value that isn't utilitarian or skill based. I can get what you are saying about humans valuing life-forms that more closely resemble ourselves. When there are expressive eyes looking back, we value the creature and so forth.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I agree with this, actually. I might be using the word "intrinsic" incorrectly. What I mostly mean is that I think it is possible to place value that isn't utilitarian or skill based. I can get what you are saying about humans valuing life-forms that more closely resemble ourselves. When there are expressive eyes looking back, we value the creature and so forth.
    exactly - which links in to the difference in understanding you were having with @Beorn - who was interpreting that judging a species based on self-awareness is judging them based on their abilities (and is thus the same as judging them on skills). it isn't - it is judging them based on the resulting experience and thus our own ability to empathise with them.

    human society judging the world by human standards - i really don't know what is more deserving of the "duh" of intrinsic/self-evident then that - there's no need for cosmological approval.

  5. #95
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    my point was the continuity and diversity of value argued about in the few posts above mine isn't intrinsic to the universe or their abilities or anything defined outside of us, it's intrinsic to the human perspective - the difference isn't inherent to them but in our own capacity to emphasize with the experience expressed by various entities.
    So...basically the point I made with my first post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    it's not intrinsic to them or to the universe or anything in between, rather: it is intrinsic to us - to our point of view as humans - we are able to experience different degrees of empathy towards different traits & animals.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I agree with this, actually. I might be using the word "intrinsic" incorrectly.
    Mane is using it incorrectly, actually. He's using it in the sense of "subjective" which is not what it means.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Mane is using it incorrectly, actually. He's using it in the sense of "subjective" which is not what it means.
    are you trying to see if my eyes can be screwed out if they roll enough? the objective phenomena which is a human entity has a capacity for simulating the subjective experience of others within the range of experiences it can identify, project and imagine from within it's own subjective range of experience. some animals fit the spectrum better than others. it is thus inherited from the nature of the human phenomena.
    generally speaking it's safe to say that objective reality contains subjective entities within it attempting to interpret it within their own subjective platforms, so there really isn't any conflict from that direction of approaching the subjective from the objective (the philosophical conflicts arise when one approaches the objective from the subjective - not the other way around).

  7. #97
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Not really, no. I just get a little irked when ENTPs try to "slay" INFJs with their ignorance. And the INFJs let them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #98
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not really, no. I just get a little irked when ENTPs try to "slay" INFJs with their ignorance. And the INFJs let them.
    What I should do with this topic is spend more time thinking before trying to put it into words. This is an area that I have a fair degree of inner certitude about, but my ideas are not constructed with language on this sort of topic, so I feel somewhat lost trying to formulate my position in words. This is making me seem a bit like a big waffle.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not really, no. I just get a little irked when ENTPs try to "slay" INFJs with their ignorance. And the INFJs let them.
    the ignorance judged by its contrast to the understandings of the same subjective entity which educated itself with said understanding using the same mental tools who just demonstrated so easily misunderstanding with :-p

    but your need to seek arguments with people in topics where you're effectively agreeing with them is interesting - you're a little piece of work...

  10. #100
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    What I should do with this topic is spend more time thinking before trying to put it into words. This is an area that I have a fair degree of inner certitude about, but my ideas are not constructed with language on this sort of topic, so I feel somewhat lost trying to formulate my position in words. This is making me seem a bit like a big waffle.
    Let's just say, in the lucidity / understanding-what-words-mean stakes, you beat Mane hands down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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