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  1. #11
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Um, people also asked for a conviction.

    I'm rather disappointed at all the NTs defending an irresponsible idiot like Zimmerman.

    I will say this.... I usually don't get worked about these things anymore, but this one semes to bring up a lot of hot buttion topics for me:

    - People trying for "heroism" and then fucking shit up
    - stranger danger paranoia
    - school disciplinary systems being held as flawless judges of character rather than arbitrary bureaucratic bullshit
    - hypocritical attitudes about drugs
    - self-righteous myopic masturbatory muttering about "'kids today."
    - ideological fundamentalism getting in the way of practical regluation
    - dumbass laws being treated as sensible simply because they are laws.
    - belligerent idiots being treated as victims

    It's as though George Zimmerman decided to piss me off personally.

    Note that Martin being black has very little to do with any of that. Maybe the drug thing, because people do seem to suddenly seem to decide drugs are scary when black people do them, otherwise, it's just people "partying, having a good time, and living dangerously".
    It's telling that no where in your list is a reference to knowing the law and applying it appropriately.
    Yet, that is what the actual trial came down to.
    Everything else you wrote is a matter of the trial of public opinion which admittedly has been a clusterf***
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  2. #12
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    You can't think of any more meaningful causes to spend your time on? Even if he's innocent he's a man who's at best too stupid to follow orders and too weak to defend himself. And an alleged child molester.
    Im pretty sure the justice system and medias have no more meanigful, I mean, lucrative causes to spend their time on. In the end it does not matter that hes innocent, all that matters is that the justice system fills their pockets with your money on a waste of time.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typh0n View Post
    Im pretty sure the justice system and medias have no more meanigful, I mean, lucrative
    Are you saying that the Zimmerman case was marketable? That the story has a market value? And that people like Martin and Zimmerman, Casey Anthony, OJ Simpson, are being treated like commodities to sell on the free market?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  4. #14
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Are you saying that the Zimmerman case was marketable? That the story has a market value? And that people like Martin and Zimmerman, Casey Anthony, OJ Simpson, are being treated like commodities to sell on the free market?
    Ill admit I dont know much about the Zimmerman case being in Europe and all, but it should be obvious that this is just another one of cases like the OJ simpson trial, Michael Jackson or the Menendez brothers, which brings the media and justice system alot of $$$. Ultimately to those making the cash it is indifferent whether or not the person on trial is guilty or not.

  5. #15
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's telling that no where in your list is a reference to knowing the law and applying it appropriately.
    What kind of thing would you be expecting? A silly law being applied appropriately does not make it any less silly. While the legal system may not have a way for dealing with silly laws, that doesn't mean they aren't silly laws.

    Also, I view legal trials as higher stakes debate teams. Lawyers have no obligation to the truth, they they have obligations to their clients (or the state, if they are a DA). Pretty much everyone agrees that about lawyers, probably even lawyers themselves. The relevant things in any given case are determined by the lawyers themselves, and maybe the judge. They aren't ironclad timeless truths. If the only thing relevant to this case is whether Zimmerman needed to defend himself, that's because the defense lawyers are smart and knew that was the best way to frame this. A more skilled prosecution may have been able to frame it differently. If the lawyers aren't setting the parameters of the case or establishing what's relevant and what isn't, why are they there? What do you think they are doing?

    I'm sure if I did enough research, I could find a legal precedent that would point to a different outcome.

    The main thing I'm concerned about is the big picture of who is guilty and who is not. I understand that the legal system may not come to the same conclusion, but I don't see how that has any bearing on the actual guilt or innocence of the parties involved. The only way I could see someone concluding so was if they believed the government was incapable of making mistakes and we have somehow reached a perfect system that cannot be improved. I know that's not a typically warm and fuzzy patriotic view of things, but you wouldn't be the first person to call me too cynical.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    What kind of thing would you be expecting? A silly law being applied appropriately does not make it any less silly. While the legal system may not have a way for dealing with silly laws, that doesn't mean they aren't silly laws.

    Also, I view legal trials as higher stakes high school debate teams. Lawyers have no obligation to the truth, they they have obligations to their clients (or the state, if they are a DA). Pretty much everyone agrees that about lawyers, probably even lawyers themselves. The relevant things in any given case are determined by the lawyers themselves, and maybe the judge. They aren't ironclad timeless truths. If the only thing relevant to this case is whether Zimmerman needed to defend himself, that's because the defense lawyers are smart and knew that was the best way to frame this. A more skilled prosecution may have been able to frame it less differently. If the lawyers aren't setting the parameters of the case or establishing what's relevant and what isn't, why are they there?

    I'm sure if I did enough research, I could find a legal precedent that would point to a different outcome.
    The prosecution had no other way to frame it, than to use a series of "shoulda-coulda-woulda" arguments. If ZIMMERMAN hadn't done such-and-such, then Martin would be alive today. If ONLY Zimmerman had followed police dispatch instructions instead of following Martin, Martin would be alive today.

    There is no better counter to the defense, unfortunately for the Trayvon side.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The prosecution had no other way to frame it, than to use a series of "shoulda-coulda-woulda" arguments. If ZIMMERMAN hadn't done such-and-such, then Martin would be alive today. If ONLY Zimmerman had followed police dispatch instructions instead of following Martin, Martin would be alive today.

    There is no better counter to the defense, unfortunately for the Trayvon side.

    Ah, so they are using the same liberal pc hogwash behind such statements like " if bin laden hadn't flown planes in to the World Trade center, a lot of people would be alive." I mean the U.S. government tried to kill him with cruise missiles! It was self-defense! Get serious people, and start using logic.

    Zimmerman's innocence is only possible by ignoring the wider context of the situation. You have to decide the wider context is not "relevant" to see him as a victim. Ignoring the context of anything is not a good way to arrive at the truth of a situation. It does make it easy for lawyers to make a living, though.

    The best thing that can be said about Zimmerman is that he did not behave responsibly, and yes, that is considered a crime if the outcome is determined to be severe enough. Otherwise, people would not be tried for fatal car accidents.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Zimmerman's innocence is only possible by ignoring the wider context of the situation. You have to decide the wider context is not "relevant" to see him as a victim.
    If ONLY Martin had dialed 911 instead of crying about it to his gf, he would be alive today. If ONLY Martin hadn't backtracked and confronted Z, he would be alive today.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    If ONLY Martin had dialed 911 instead of crying about it to his gf, he would be alive today. If ONLY Martin hadn't backtracked and confronted Z, he would be alive today.
    So you've given up on any pretense of applying logic and are just using whatever the hell this is. You know, stranger danger paranoia about crime is as much of an irrational emotional response as the overzealous political correctness that everyone who disagrees with this verdict supposedly has.


    I got one: "If only I hadn't drank fifteen bottles of Everclear and pushed that bus full of nuns of a cliff with my 18 wheeler, those nuns would be alive."
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  10. #20
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Um, people also asked for a conviction.

    I'm rather disappointed at all the NTs defending an irresponsible idiot like Zimmerman.

    I will say this.... I usually don't get worked about these things anymore, but this one semes to bring up a lot of hot buttion topics for me:

    - People trying for "heroism" and then fucking shit up
    - stranger danger paranoia
    - school disciplinary systems being held as flawless judges of character rather than arbitrary bureaucratic bullshit
    - hypocritical attitudes about drugs
    - self-righteous myopic masturbatory muttering about "'kids today."
    - ideological fundamentalism getting in the way of practical regluation
    - dumbass laws being treated as sensible simply because they are laws.
    - belligerent idiots being treated as victims

    It's as though George Zimmerman decided to piss me off personally.

    Note that Martin being black has very little to do with any of that. Maybe the drug thing, because people do seem to suddenly seem to decide drugs are scary when black people do them, otherwise, it's just people "partying, having a good time, and living dangerously".
    That list is pretty sterling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's telling that no where in your list is a reference to knowing the law and applying it appropriately.
    Yet, that is what the actual trial came down to.
    Everything else you wrote is a matter of the trial of public opinion which admittedly has been a clusterf***
    First of all, it wasn't necessarilly the appropriate application of the law. The opinion I've seen from the general body of legal experts is that the prosecution aimed to high, and that if they had pursued manslaughter and built the case for that the whole time instead, they might have had a shot. Instead, they went for murder 2 and suggested manslaughter at the last minute. They should have gone with manslaughter, and if that was failing, suggest assault at the last minute. the prosecution left itself with the need to prove Zimmerman somehow had ill will toward Martin, which of course made no contextual sense outside of the possiiblity of racism. Had they been going for manslaughter, they could have framed Zimmerman as a vigilante and Martin an innocent kid who paid for Zimmerman's silly fanatasies and poor judgment with his life (as far as I can tell, that is reality's version).

    But secondly, msg specifically listed the problem of dumbass laws being considered sensible just because they are laws. Like I already said, there are two levels to this debate. One is how the law applies to Zimmerman, and the other is whether the laws are any good in the first place.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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