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  1. #71
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by synopsis of the situation
    Zimmerman: Uh oh.... there's a thief in the area. Why do these bastards always get away? And why the fuck is he obviously on drugs?

    Police: We'll check it out. Stay there.

    Nevertheless, somehow Zimmerman, ran in to Martin. Zimmerman and Martin are fighting. Zimmerman shoots Martin.
    Wow.... Martin must have totally started that fight. Zimmerman was just standing up for the freedom of Americans to act like jackasses, that's all. Yes, let's empower and encourage these assholes.

    And gosh, only one person is alive, and they said they didn't do anything wrong, so in the absence of any proof, we'll have to believe that. We don't know what really happened, so we'll have to take his word for it, especially because we have conflicting accounts from neighbors and relatives.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #72
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Could you please explain?
    1. He continued investigating AFTER contacting authorities.
    2. He continued investigating after contacting authorities who told him not to pursue Martin any farther. The authorities don't make suggestions for the fuck of it. It was to protect Zimmerman and Martin both. Instead, Zimmerman decided 'Fuck you, this is my neighborhood and you aren't here and he's going to get away with--!!" .. Whatever it is he thought Martin was going to get away with unless he heroically intervened.
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  3. #73
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    I only skimmed this thread, but tell me if I get the gist of what is being argued.

    It's not being argued that Zimmerman absolutely purposely engaged Martin with the intent to shoot him, but rather that Martin had a right to defend himself against Zimmerman who, as an over-zealous racist wannabe cop, had a corresponding duty to take the ass-whooping he received without defending himself and thus deserves to suffer the consequences for disobeying that duty by defending himself and in the process killing Martin.

    Or to put it more succinctly: Zimmerman started it.

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  4. #74
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    None of the evidence points to a scenario where zimmerman walked up to Martin in a friendly manner, and Martin randomly decided to attack him. That phone call has the attitude of someone who has already concluded that Martin is a threat, without any sense of doubt. There is no evidence that he was just investigating the situation. He had made his mind up, and was going to do something about the situation, damnit.

    On a side note, this is the kind of stuff I mean when I say that a "reliance on empiricism is paralysis." We may not have any proof that Zimmerman was responsible for the situation escalating. But looking at what we do know, it seems ridiculous to conclude anything else. We can't prove it though, so it's better to set a precedent and encourage others to harass people for "acting funny" so that we can all "be safe" from some over-hyped threat. We may as well just make it a law making it legal to shoot people if their hair is dyed funny colors.

    Meanwhile, it's supposed to a national tragedy every time some white girl is missing. Give me a fucking break.
    I understand. However, I am in favor of letting Zimmerman off if there is no way to prove Zimmerman initiated the physical altercation, simply because the evidence points to Zimmerman being physically attacked and Trayvon being the one perpetuating the conflict without reprieve. My intuition tells me what really happened - but the court system is not founded on this (perhaps abstractly), and I'm damn glad about it.

    I think it will teach a proper lesson regardless of outcome, another stone laid to the foundation of knowledge for many.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's not being argued that Zimmerman absolutely purposely engaged Martin with the intent to shoot him, but rather that Martin had a right to defend himself against Zimmerman who, as an over-zealous racist wannabe cop, had a corresponding duty to take the ass-whooping he received without defending himself and thus deserves to suffer the consequences for disobeying that duty by defending himself and in the process killing Martin.

    Or to put it more succinctly: Zimmerman started it.

    Is that right?
    This is the most logical point of view, and hopefully the one that gets him charged with second degree murder.

  5. #75
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    My intuition tells me what really happened - but the court system is not founded on this (perhaps abstractly), and I'm damn glad about it.
    Probably it's a good thing that it works that way. But it's still damn infuriating. Course, the justice system can't work if we have people working out their stupid vigilante fantasies without having a clue about what they are doing and shooting people they think are suspects. But I suppose that's what the founding fathers intended when they wrote the second amendment, so we better not do anything about it or else we'll became the Soviet Nazi Republic of America. I wouldn't want to live in a kind of nightmare society like that, where people get shot just for acting funny.

    I'd be ok if Zimmerman got manslaughter, however, it looks like that may not even happen.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #76
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I only skimmed this thread, but tell me if I get the gist of what is being argued.

    It's not being argued that Zimmerman absolutely purposely engaged Martin with the intent to shoot him, but rather that Martin had a right to defend himself against Zimmerman who, as an over-zealous racist wannabe cop, had a corresponding duty to take the ass-whooping he received without defending himself and thus deserves to suffer the consequences for disobeying that duty by defending himself and in the process killing Martin.

    Or to put it more succinctly: Zimmerman started it.

    Is that right?
    Cops tell you not to pursue someone. You do anyway, with a gun. Unarmed person you pursue physically confronts you out of a sense of threat. Fight starts. You shoot the person you shouldn't have been pursuing, and they die as a result. You are not guilty of anything because...?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #77
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Probably it's a good thing that it works that way. But it's still damn infuriating. Course, the justice system can't work if we have people working out their stupid vigilante fantasies without having a clue about what they are doing and shooting people they think are suspects. But I suppose that's what the founding fathers intended when they wrote the second amendment, so we better not do anything about it or else we'll became the Soviet Nazi Republic of America.

    I'd be ok if Zimmerman got manslaughter, however, it looks like that may not even happen.
    We shall wait and see!

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Cops tell you not to pursue someone. You do anyway, with a gun. Unarmed person you pursue physically confronts you out of a sense of threat. Fight starts. You shoot the person you shouldn't have been pursuing, and they die as a result. You are not guilty of anything because...?
    You didn't do anything illegal.

    What was the origin of the sense of threat?

  9. #79
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Cops tell you not to pursue someone. You do anyway, with a gun. Unarmed person you pursue physically confronts you out of a sense of threat. Fight starts. You shoot the person you shouldn't have been pursuing, and they die as a result. You are not guilty of anything because...?
    We don't want to become Nazi Russia and somehow send the message to our citizens that they shouldn't be doing stupid things with guns. (That's pretty much the primary theme of Mein Kampf.... it's actually about how concealed carry is bad.) Isn't that all the explanation you need?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  10. #80
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Cops tell you not to pursue someone. You do anyway, with a gun. Unarmed person you pursue physically confronts you out of a sense of threat. Fight starts. You shoot the person you shouldn't have been pursuing, and they die as a result. You are not guilty of anything because...?
    What exactly are you arguing?

    What elements of the crime does that scenario prove?

    Whether or not Martin had a right to defend himself has zero to do with whether or not Zimmerman committed murder.

    This isn't pre-school. "He started it" doesn't resolve the matter.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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