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  1. #51
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    I think there's gonna be riots whether the man gets acquitted or not.

  2. #52
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post

    So folks are worried for example that someone could provoke another with the intention of killing them and then just let the other party win the fight until they could justifiably kill them.

    Do I have this right?
    It looks more like he wanted to either start a fight or do something "heroic", and then, when it looked like he wasn't winning, panicked and shot him. Regardless of who struck the first blow, which I'm not entirely clear on, does my understanding of Zimmerman's intentions seem off? At the very least, Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter. Provoking a fight, and then claiming you were acting in self-defense when you killed the guy is absurd. Zimmerman's goal was obviously to seek out conflict, not to avoid it.

    I'm puzzled about why CCW is seen as a civil liberties issue. I don't really see the point of carrying a gun on you for protection if you're going to hide it all the time. It seems that a gun is more useful as a deterrent, and thus, a means of protection, if knowledge of possession is clear. Reminds me of Dr. Strangeglove and the absurdity of a secret nuclear deterrent.

    The irrational opposition to any sensible regulation on guns has made me less against gun control in recent years, while not siding with the more extreme positions. The right to play cop and shoot someone when you're too doughy to win the fight is not the hallmark of a free society. Cases like this are exactly why people are against allowing concealed carry weapons. How, exactly, do CCW laws violate anyone's freedom?
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Yes. And the state has a compelling interest in preventing crime that can (and frequently does) outweigh the interest of the people in maintaining those freedoms.

    I'm pretty libertarian, but I don't think allowing CCW on a plane is the right course of action.

    The key is at which point freedom must render to security and vice versa. Determining where to draw that line is the hard part.

    Understanding the importance of freedom and security as individual concepts is the easy part.
    To avoid tangential discussion, all I can do is bemoan Zimmerman's decision to wittingly enter an elevated state of suspicion and approach this kid preemptively with a pistol strapped.

    And for everyone's record, Trayvon did run away from this guy, and momentarily eluded capture. I wonder what happened when Zimmerman lost line of sight...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin..._investigation

  4. #54
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    To avoid tangential discussion, all I can do is bemoan Zimmerman's decision to wittingly enter an elevated state of suspicion and approach this kid preemptively with a pistol strapped.

    And for everyone's record, Trayvon did run away from this guy, and momentarily eluded capture. I wonder what happened when Zimmerman lost line of sight...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin..._investigation
    I'm sure Zimmerman was being friendly and charming and Martin just attacked him because of the drugs.

    There doesn't even appear to concrete information that Martin even struck the first blow.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

    Visit my Johari:
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It looks more like he wanted to either start a fight or do something "heroic", and then, when it looked like he wasn't winning, panicked and shot him. Regardless of who struck the first blow, which I'm not entirely clear on, does my understanding of Zimmerman's intentions seem off? At the very least, Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter. Provoking a fight, and then claiming you were acting in self-defense when you killed the guy is absurd. Zimmerman's goal was obviously to seek out conflict, not to avoid it.
    I'm going to start by politely stating I don't have any particular dog in this fight, and I don't have every relevant detail of what happened that night.

    Hi.

    You say Zimmerman's goal was to "obviously seek out conflict, not to avoid it."

    Do you mean that he was actually looking for a fight? Or do you mean he entered into a dangerous situation instead of simply avoiding it?

    I personally think there is a significant difference between investigating something suspicious (which might involve an element of risk), and actually looking to start or escalate a conflict.

    Which do you mean?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    There doesn't even appear to concrete information that Martin even struck the first blow.
    No, and that is what I was referencing earlier, regarding him enjoying the benefit of the technicalities of the situation.

    I had almost no opinion of the case since it happened, I don't know why it's just now making my blood run hot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Which do you mean?
    "In the call, Zimmerman made references to people he felt had gotten away with break-ins in the neighborhood, and while talking about Martin, stated 'these assholes, they always get away' and also said 'these fucking punks'."

    Hmm...

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    ...
    I'll respond to you two in a minute.

    Its taxing to explain this stuff in the kind of detail I need to in order to get my points across.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    No, and that is what I was referencing earlier, regarding him enjoying the benefit of the technicalities of the situation.

    I had almost no opinion of the case since it happened, I don't know why it's just now making my blood run hot.



    "In the call, Zimmerman made references to people he felt had gotten away with break-ins in the neighborhood, and while talking about Martin, stated 'these assholes, they always get away' and also said 'these fucking punks'."

    Hmm...
    That's related, but I was asking more about what "provoking" a fight is.

    I understand the desire to go on the defense or offense for proving a point, but I'm asking about the ideological underpinnings of what someone believes, not about how they relate to this specific case - yet. I want to separate those so I can understand what people are saying.




    For what it's worth I do see how that's relevant - he's already assumed certain details ('this guy is a thief'). However, I don't think that nessesarily demonstrates that he was looking for a fight or that his assumption was cast solid in his own mind. I'm still reserving judgement and reading about the events.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    That's related, but I was asking more about what "provoking" a fight is.

    I understand the desire to go on the defense or offense for proving a point, but I'm asking about the ideological underpinnings of what someone believes, not about how they relate to this specific case - yet. I want to separate those so I can understand what people are saying.

    For what it's worth I do see how that's relevant - he's already assumed certain details ('this guy is a thief'). However, I don't think that nessesarily demonstrates that he was looking for a fight or that his assumption was cast solid in his own mind. I'm still reserving judgement and reading about the events.
    My apologies, I'm not a very vocal person.

    This is all we really know objectively about the situation. We can only infer his attitude towards the young man based off this, anything that happened subsequently is pretty much between him and Trayvon.

    I'm in the same boat. I have no clue. And I don't think there'll really be any evidence to point to Zimmerman being the primary physical aggressor.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    At the very least, Zimmerman is guilty of manslaughter. Provoking a fight, and then claiming you were acting in self-defense when you killed the guy is absurd. Zimmerman's goal was obviously to seek out conflict, not to avoid it.
    On what grounds do you claim that Zimmerman provoked the fight? Did he hit Martin?

    Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion?

    Did Zimmerman use Fighting Words to incite Martin?

    http://definitions.uslegal.com/f/fighting-words/

    Fighting words are words intentionally directed toward another person which are so venomous and full of malice as to cause the hearer to suffer emotional distress or incite him/her to immediately retaliate physically. Fighting words are not an excuse or defense for a retaliatory assault and battery. However, if they are so threatening as to cause apprehension, they can form the basis for a lawsuit for assault, even though the words alone don't constitute an assault.

    The utterance of fighting words is not protected by the free speech protections of the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. The words are often evaluated not only by the words themselves, but the context in which they are spoken. Courts generally impose a requirement that the speaker intended to cuase a breach of the peace or incite the hearer to violence.
    I'll be happy to consider anything you might have.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    There doesn't even appear to concrete information that Martin even struck the first blow.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin...autopsy_report

    The Volusia County medical examiner found that Martin was killed by an injury resulting from a single gunshot to the chest, fired at "intermediate range," between 1 and 18 inches according to a forensic expert.[33][Note 6] An FDLE analysis of Martin's body and clothes described the distance as "a contact shot".[142] The autopsy also found that Martin had one small abrasion on his left ring finger below the knuckle. No other injuries were found on Martin's body at the time of his death.[33] Physicians who reviewed the official autopsy report for the Orlando Sentinel, stated in their opinion that Martin lived from 20 seconds to several minutes after he was shot, and that Martin likely remained conscious "for a time anyway."
    There was no evidence of damage anywhere on Martin, except for the abrasion on his left ring finger and the gun shot wound. There was no damage on his face, or any defensive scarring to his hands and arms that would be consistent with a two sided struggle.

    The fact that Martin was on top at the time of the shooting isn't dispositive on the issue, but it does strengthen the Defense's case that Martin was the initiator of the physical confrontation.

    In lieu of that, and the fact that Zimmerman had scarring consistent with being attacked, bloody (possibly broken nose), lacerations to the back of his head and no signs of aggressive injury (hand damage) it isn't unreasonable to assume that Martin struck first.

    For reference:









    Lastly... the defense's expert witness noted Forensic pathologist Dr. Vincent Di Maio, has stated that Zimmerman's story was consistent with the evidence.

    Here is Dr. Di Maio's background to buttress his credibility as an expert witness:

    http://legalinsurrection.com/2013/07...ase-nears-end/

    Dr. Vincent Di Maio, Forensic Pathologist

    It seemed to take the entire first hour of Dr. Di Maio’s testimony simply to work though his background and credentials. He has spent on the order of 40 years working as a forensic pathologist, having personally conducted some 9,000 autopsies and overseen tens of thousands more. Defense attorney stepped through these qualifications in his usual deliberative manner.

    In addition to his work conducting autopsies, Dr. Di Maio had also served in the military in a capacity in which he was able to study terminal ballistics and gun shot wounds. He stepped through the process by which a gun fires a cartridge, focusing particularly on the matter ejected from the muzzle, including the hot expanding gases, the bullet, and unburned gun powder.
    In my opinion the most important bit of testimony from the Dr. was this:

    Injuries to Zimmerman’s Head Were Potentially Life Threatening

    Further testimony from Dr. Di Maio emphasized the life-threatening danger of blows to the head. He noted that intracranial bleeding is hidden, and often does not cause death until some hours after the injury that caused it. He also noted that axonal injury can occur even besides bleeding, causing brain damage. This undermines the State’s arguments that the blows to Zimmermans’ head were inconsequential and could not have represented the reasonable threat of death or grave bodily harm necessary to justify Zimmerman’s use of deadly force in self-defense.
    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    "In the call, Zimmerman made references to people he felt had gotten away with break-ins in the neighborhood, and while talking about Martin, stated 'these assholes, they always get away' and also said 'these fucking punks'."

    Hmm...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shootin...autopsy_report

    Background of the shooting

    ....Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[90] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood.[64]
    There had been an unusual number of break ins prior to the shooting. This lends strength to the argument that Zimmerman's heightened suspicion had to do with actual events and not racism.

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