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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I am speaking of a wider context, not specific to this case. You should be able to walk at night (if you consider 7:30 ever to be "night") without being a criminal, just as a woman should be able to wear revealing clothing without being a slut.

    I know you understood this.
    I didn't realize I needed to throw out the context of the surrounding case.

    I hadn't really been getting into the weeds of the discussion between yourself and Kyu. That statement just kind of jumped out at me.

  2. #42
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm a little concerned right now that a girl rubbing a guy's crotch during dancing apparently justifies his later raping her.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'm a little concerned right now that a girl rubbing a guy's crotch during dancing apparently justifies his later raping her.
    It's an imperfect analogy, but serves to demonstrate the impact of an extenuating circumstance.

  4. #44
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    I don't want to derail, but that analogy is not "imperfect", it's ludicrous enough to be offensive. It is not an "extenuating circumstance" for rape to show sexual interest earlier in the evening - it doesn't make it less immoral or less illegal or even more understandable (really, not even a little!). It's a hideous comparison to arguing self-defense for a murder.

    edit: it is a good analogy if you're comparing it to the argument that "walking outside after dark is an extenuating crcumstance for being murdered". My bad, if that's what you meant.
    -end of thread-

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I don't want to derail, but that analogy is not "imperfect", it's ludicrous enough to be offensive. It is not an "extenuating circumstance" for rape to show sexual interest earlier in the evening - it doesn't make it less immoral or less illegal or even more understandable (really, not even a little!). It's a hideous comparison to arguing self-defense for a murder.
    Its extenuating insofar as it helps to explain how a reasonable man in that persons shoes could conclude that the dance partner was attracted to them, and therefore how they could decide to pursue further sexual interaction.

    It does nothing to lessen the man's liability once the woman has shown that she's not interested.

    The example I used is a better analogy to the case at hand than the "she's deserves it" hypothetical mentioned insofar as the actions of the other party (the woman/Martin) greatly increased the likelihood of the situation escalating.

    In the Zimmerman case this would be Martin striking Zimmerman. The fact that the situation escalated out of the control of Martin does not negate the fact that his knowing actions were the proximate cause of the escalation in the first place.

    In my hypothetical, the woman rubbing his dick (in the mind of anyone with enough neurons to get out of bed in the morning) could reasonably be expected to lead to sexual escalation on the part of the man. Insofar as she rubbed his dick knowing that he was likely to respond by escalating the situation, and insofar as a reasonable man in that situation would respond by escalating, her actions lessen his liability for that escalation.

    Where that analogy falls apart is that her actions only absolve his liability for escalating the situation in that specific instance. The moment he turned it up a notch and she demonstrated that she wasn't into it, he once again incurs full liability for his actions.

    The woman rubbing his dick only explains his response to that action, not some later escalation that involves rape. Let's assume for instance, that he grabs er boob while dancing in response to her rubbing his dick. The fact that she rubbed his dick makes only his proportional response (the boob grab) to that action reasonable. Him raping her later can in no real way be justified by the dick rub.

    The difference is that in Zimmerman's case Martin starting the fight (and continuing to strike him on the ground) naturally led to Zimmerman fearing for his life (or GBH). There was no break in the action here. Starting and continuing the fight led directly to Zimmerman shooting Martin.

    Thus Martin's actions explain and justify Zimmerman's decision to shoot in a way that the woman's actions in my hypothetical do not.

  6. #46
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    I guess I'll need to be a little more specific to keep you from picking up any rhetorical club you can find to beat me with.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I didn't realize I needed to throw out the context of the surrounding case.
    It does still apply, on the widest scope of the case.

    For this case is a prime example of how America(n)'s habitual interest to proactively work against crime is counter-productive to the freedoms we claim to embody.

    And I can almost guarantee you, non-whites feel it a heck of lot more than whites do. This case exemplifies that fact in blood.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    It does still apply, on the widest scope of the case.

    For this case is a prime example of how America(n)'s habitual interest to proactively work against crime is counter-productive to the freedoms we claim to embody.

    And I can almost guarantee you, non-whites feel it a heck of lot more than whites do. This case exemplifies that fact in blood.
    You say that as if wanting to prevent crime is "per se" morally objectionable.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You say that as if wanting to prevent crime is "per se" morally objectionable.
    It's pretty blatant the majority of the undertakings involved are infringements on personal liberty.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    It's pretty blatant the majority of the undertakings involved are infringements on personal liberty.
    Yes. And the state has a compelling interest in preventing crime that can (and frequently does) outweigh the interest of the people in maintaining those freedoms.

    I'm pretty libertarian, but I don't think allowing CCW on a plane is the right course of action.

    The key is at which point freedom must render to security and vice versa. Determining where to draw that line is the hard part.

    Understanding the importance of freedom and security as individual concepts is the easy part.

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