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  1. #461
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Threatened with a weapon you mean. Most people just talk shit with empty hands and never do anything.

    What evidence do you have that he was?

    He's not going to win this one.
    The burden of proof is on the state.

    I hope he wins. Florida can become a magnet for all similar nutjobs who want to shoot people at gas stations. Get them out of my state.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #462
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The facts matter.
    Ok. Let's back this whole thing up a little bit. I find this whole issue to be fairly painful. Perhaps too painful to accomodate any perspective but my own, which will tend to make fruitful conversation difficult. Though frequently at odds with your perspective, I'm fairly fond of you D, and don't think I can discuss this much further in a productive way.

    Before disengaging on this subject, I'm gonna say that there's sort of a silver lining to the divisiveness Trayvon case, which is this:

    I've been playing with the idea that on a more macro-level, the Blue/Red mentality divide that we see seems to be so profound, so overwhelming, because we as a country are finally wrestling with some of the deepest wounds in our collective psyche in a way that was historically just not possible. It's an important time to be alive because something new is struggling to be born, and what we do now will dictate its form and viability. I believe that the country will be greater for what it's experiencing now, rather than dissolving under the strain. Perhaps there's a little too much naivete in my optimism, but the reaction to the Martin case is a solid counter to that. 20 years ago after the King case, there were riots in the streets of south central LA. In contrast, over the last week there were peaceful demonstrations across the country that bespoke a new kind of ownership and stake in the country itself. That progress could be made so rapidly is mind blowing to me in the best kind of way.

    Anyways, my point with all that is that while facts are interesting, they only start to matter when taken in broader context. The grand sweep of things to me seems to point more towards those demonstrations, than the acquittal of George Zimmerman.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  3. #463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The burden of proof is on the state.
    And they will have no trouble finding that his fear was not reasonable.

  4. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Ok. Let's back this whole thing up a little bit. I find this whole issue to be fairly painful. Perhaps too painful to accomodate any perspective but my own, which will tend to make fruitful conversation difficult. Though frequently at odds with your perspective, I'm fairly fond of you D, and don't think I can discuss this much further in a productive way.

    Before disengaging on this subject, I'm gonna say that there's sort of a silver lining to the divisiveness Trayvon case, which is this:

    I've been playing with the idea that on a more macro-level, the Blue/Red mentality divide that we see seems to be so profound, so overwhelming, because we as a country are finally wrestling with some of the deepest wounds in our collective psyche in a way that was historically just not possible. It's an important time to be alive because something new is struggling to be born, and what we do now will dictate its form and viability. I believe that the country will be greater for what it's experiencing now, rather than dissolving under the strain. Perhaps there's a little too much naivete in my optimism, but the reaction to the Martin case is a solid counter to that. 20 years ago after the King case, there were riots in the streets of south central LA. In contrast, over the last week there were peaceful demonstrations across the country that bespoke a new kind of ownership and stake in the country itself. That progress could be made so rapidly is mind blowing to me in the best kind of way.

    Anyways, my point with all that is that while facts are interesting, they only start to matter when taken in broader context. The grand sweep of things to me seems to point more towards those demonstrations, than the acquittal of George Zimmerman.
    I'm fond of you as well Wind-Up.

    If we discussed this in person over drinks without the peanut gallery I highly suspect the conversation would be much more civil, and our points of contention diminished precipitously.

  5. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Lol at liberals ignoring handguns.

    If any of you really gave a shit about changing things you would start with pistols in crime ridden neighborhoods and expand from there.

    Where you would not start is with assault rifles that make up a small portion of that 323.

    It's ten times as many in the ghetto where I don't live. The only thing I fear from guns is a negligent discharge from someone not trained properly at the range.

    That is unless I'm at the Hess station in Arlington (the ghetto) at 3am and two guys set me up for a car jacking as happened to me in 2008.
    Yes because most public mass random shootings happen in the ghetto...wait oops no most of those appear to be happening in the "safe" suburbs at the hands of middle class white men, some of them trained at a range.

    The ghettos argument is racist and outdated fail. The new public enemy number one is a lot like your demographic that you seem to deem superior.

  6. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yes because most public mass random shootings happen in the ghetto...wait oops no most of those appear to be happening in the "safe" suburbs at the hands of middle class white men, some of them trained at a range.

    The ghettos argument is racist and outdated fail. The new public enemy number one is a lot like your demographic that you seem to deem superior.
    What percentage of total firearm homicides do mass shootings account for?

    What percentage of total firearm homicides do gang related killings account for?

  7. #467
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    In 2010 and 2011 Gang related homicides accounted for 8,900 out of 11,100 total firearm homicides. That's roughly 80%.

    http://usconservatives.about.com/gi/.../nvsr61_06.pdf

  8. #468
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    You're right. I missed it, but seeing it now still feel you're being facile about it. If Martin knew that Zimmerman had a gun, whether he reached for it or not, depending on what was said Martin may have felt his life was at stake. You're also forgetting that immediately leading up to the altercation itself, Martin actually ran away from Zimmerman, leading Zimmerman to chase him down despite the 911 dispatcher telling him not to.
    Lol, it was right there. But ok, I'll let that go.

    It's true, Martin did run away after seeing Zimmerman in his car. That's in the 911 call by Zimmerman. Zimmerman saw this as suspicious. Martin was nervous and threatened. (PS 911 dispatch will tell anyone and everyone to avoid danger - it's a standard procedure, not a police order.) Personally, I think Zimmerman was paranoid and stupid, but there's nothing illegal about examining suspicious circumstances. He should have had a flashlight and identified himself.

    Let's say Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun, somehow. That'd probably incite the following reactions:

    - freeze, be still
    - panic, run away

    But the least likely would be:

    - charge at Zimmerman. That's almost kind of insane, but in some situation I'd suppose that's a reasonable choice.

    Especially...

    So taking into consideration that Martin was cornered
    So let's say he was cornered. It was on a sidewalk...a long straight sidewalk...I don't think that qualifies as being cornered, really. But ok, so then you're afraid if you turn and run this guy is going to shoot you in the back or something. After all, you are allowed to stand your ground. That can be the safer option.


    at night, by an armed, hostile stranger--what was he supposed to do? What would you have done?
    In that case, what would I do? This guy has a gun and I know it.

    As I've mentioned in other posts, mere possession of a weapon is NOT imminent threat. There isn't evidence that Zimmerman chased Martin*, (though he did follow his direction) nor is there evidence of overt hostility towards him. I can understand Martin being nervous, sure, seems like both these guys were paranoid.

    (*And for at least as long as they were on the phone after Z got out of his car while talking to police he was not running, but walking. The absence of evidence is not evidence, either.)

    So ok...let's say that Z was hostile. And he's making threats. In that case, it's totally legitimate and understandable that Martin would let's say, punch him in the face and knock him to the ground. I might do that.

    That's a totally understandable response.

    But here's the thing.

    Did you listen to the link I provided?

    http://www.randirhodes.com/pages/rrn...rticle=9924394

    (gunshot and screaming heard in 3rd link)
    Let's say I punch Zimmerman in the face. I'm afraid, who is this guy, why is he following me? Get away from me, man. I punch him, he falls back, and then I run.

    How many times does this guy scream help? At this point, I'm on top of Zimmerman, punching him in the face, and he's screaming bloody murder, he's obviously in pain and distress. If I did think he was an attacker, he's not much of an attacker any more - the guy is screaming for help in pain. He's not necessarily subdued yet, but he's on the ground and I seem to have the upper hand.

    At this point I can probably launch off him and run the hell away.

    But I'm a younger version of me, and I'm scared. So I'm on top of him and I just keep beating him. Listen to how long there was screaming for help. Count the seconds off.

    The audio starts (did you listen to it?) and from the beginning there is screaming, and there is a gunshot @ 45 seconds in. The lady on the phone says someone is screaming...you'd guess there was at least 10 seconds of screaming before she dialed 911.

    Ok, so I'm panicked, and I hit the guy and I get him on the ground and I'm beating on a guy screaming "help" over and over for...how long? Nearly a minute? Christ. I mean...maybe this guy is trying to pull a weapon on me, it's possible, but it sounds like he's just getting his ass kicked and begging for someone to come stop this. At what point do I say to myself: "hey, I'm scared - but this guy is terrified. Maybe I should stop punching him in the face?"

    I could have just broken his nose and knocked him down and ran...or I could have kept punching him and ran. Now it's been 20 seconds. 30 seconds. 40 seconds. When do I stop before it becomes questionable that I'm just defending myself?

    But if that's what you believe, then apply the same principle equitably. If Trayvon should have been able to withstand imminent threat passively, then Zimmerman ought to be as well.
    I don't think you should be passive. I don't think you should just sit there and wait to die. In any case. You can run or you can fight or you can negotiate and talk. As stated above, I don't think it would have been totally off balance if Martin got nervous, and punched Zimmerman in the face, and ran. But for nearly a minute he was fighting with this guy. I'm no psychology expert, but I know what aggression feels like. When you're angry, fighting, you're focused. It seems really unlikely you're actively trying to fight (as opposed to defend) while screaming help (in distress) at the same time, over and over...for nearly a minute. I think you really have to want to hurt someone to drag it out that long while someone is screaming for help.

    It's possible Zimmerman was trying to pull his weapon at the same time, I don't know.

    If someone is on top of you and possibly going to knock you unconscious (and then what?), I don't mean in a ring or even at a bar or something, I mean on the dark sidewalk, your life is at risk.



    I included a link to an article regarding it.
    It was just a short blurb on that story, I'm hesitant to open that up and crack into all the details on that without researching more evidence.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #469
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    This wasn't a Stand Your Ground case; I would like that to be established right away.

    That said, with the constant stream of hysterical declarations that the verdict and Stand Your Ground laws signify the second-coming/continuance of Jim Crow and 'open season' on young black males, it should probably be pointed out that the law has apparently disproportionately benefited black defendants in Florida: http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/16/bl...rtionate-rate/

    Here is a database of Stand Your Ground cases in Florida, easily categorized and aggregated in just about any manner one would want, for quick research: http://www.tampabay.com/stand-your-g...aw/fatal-cases

  10. #470
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    No, Casey Anthony is an innocent victim. I can't believe you were sucked into that PC anti-adult bullshit. The laws of the state of Florida decided she was an innocent, too. Those kids were gonna grow up to get suspended, anyway. One of those kids pooped their diapers on several occasions as an infant. I think I can extrapolate a lot from their character based on that. How can anyone not take that as evidence of general contempt for other human beings? If I went into your house and pooped on your rug, wouldn't you doubt my sanity and probably fear for your safety?

    Also, Casey Anthony said she didn't do it. Is their any reasonable evidence for why a mother would lie? If we are claiming something as terrible as a mother lying about the death of her kids, the burden of proof is on the ones making such a radical accusation, seeing as how it goes against common sense. Also, none of those kids are there to testify on their behave, so given that, we have to base our opinion on the only participant around to provide accounts of those events.
    Well that's cute that you mocked my post, but what evidence can you bring to the table for your obvious claim that George Zimmerman was guilty?

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