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  1. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ummm. Rifles? That page lists all fire arms combined at 8,583.
    You're point being?

    Almost all of those are pistols. And almost all of that is crime related.

  2. #432
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    In 2011 728 people were murdered with hands, fists, feet etc..

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr...e-data-table-8

    In the same year rifles killed 323 people.
    LOL @ you ignoring handguns. I don't think I've ever seen a more deliberate and obvious attempt to be deceitful in my entire life. So much fail. Total firearms deaths in 2011: 8583. That's more than 10 times as many. So you're more than 10 times more likely to die by a firearm than by fists/feet/etc. That's an order a magnitude, so I was right.

    Edit: And that's just murder victims. Once you add in accidents, the numbers are even worse. How many people are accidentally killed by fists each year? Does that even happen?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #433
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    You'd be surprised.
    No I wouldn't be surprised. Someone trained to kill with fists could do it relatively quickly (but it would still take more time and energy than with a gun), but that's a vanishingly small percentage of the population. It's so small that it's not even worth mentioning. It's statistically negligible.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #434
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I consider the right of self-defense to extend to situations where one's head is getting pounded into the pavement while you're calling for help.
    The right to self-defense, sure. The right to use lethal force? I disagree.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #435
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    LOL @ you ignoring handguns. I don't think I've ever seen a more deliberate and obvious attempt to be deceitful in my entire life. So much fail. Total firearms deaths in 2011: 8583. That's more than 10 times as many. So you're more than 10 times more likely to die by a firearm than by fists/feet/etc. That's an order a magnitude, so I was right.
    I wonder what the deal is with the 12 people murdered by explosives.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Edit: And that's just murder victims. Once you add in accidents, the numbers are even worse. How many people are accidentally killed by fists each year? Does that even happen?
    Well, if someone knows how to do it, it's probably the same rednecks that usually die of accidental gunshot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The right to self-defense, sure. The right to use lethal force? I disagree.
    This is an interesting thing. Even when I was a kid, I sort of assumed the force used in self-defense could only go so far. I could foresee some problems in it, but I still thought that's the way it worked. I was quite surprised when I learned how many people received no sentences of any kind after using lethal force.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    LOL @ you ignoring handguns. I don't think I've ever seen a more deliberate attempt to be deceitful in my entire life. So much fail. Total firearms deaths in 2011: 8583. That's more than 10 times as many. So you're more than 10 times more likely to die by a firearm than by fists/feet/etc. That's an order a magnitude, so I was right.
    Lol at liberals ignoring handguns.

    If any of you really gave a shit about changing things you would start with pistols in crime ridden neighborhoods and expand from there.

    Where you would not start is with assault rifles that make up a small portion of that 323.

    It's ten times as many in the ghetto where I don't live. The only thing I fear from guns is a negligent discharge from someone not trained properly at the range.

    That is unless I'm at the Hess station in Arlington (the ghetto) at 3am and two guys set me up for a car jacking as happened to me in 2008.

  7. #437
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The right to self-defense, sure. The right to use lethal force? I disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post



    This is an interesting thing. Even when I was a kid, I sort of assumed the force used in self-defense could only go so far. I could foresee some problems in it, but I still thought that's the way it worked. I was quite surprised when I learned how many people received no sentences of any kind after using lethal force.
    Am I living in bizarro world.
    I don't know what you two are on about.

    No, you generally can't meet non-lethal force with lethal force. If a toddler kicks you in the shins you can't blow his head away.

    What's at issue here is whether there was a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was in fear for his life or of great bodily harm when the evidence points to him getting his face punched and and headed ponded in the pavement.

    If you want to make a law that nobody can respond to a physical beating with a weapon it just seems to me that your putting the weak and elderly at risk.

    I'll say it again and I'll say it a hundred times:
    Hard cases make bad laws

    This is not the case to base any changes to the criminal justice system on.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #438
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Lol at liberals ignoring handguns.

    If any of you really gave a shit about changing things you would start with pistols in crime ridden neighborhoods and expand from there.

    Where you would not start is with assault rifles that make up a small portion of that 323.

    It's ten times as many in the ghetto where I don't live. The only thing I fear from guns is a negligent discharge from someone not trained properly at the range.

    That is unless I'm at the Hess station in Arlington (the ghetto) at 3am and two guys set me up for a car jacking as happened to me in 2008.
    Uhh, I'm not for gun control. I know I've said this several times before and I know you've read it. The best thing we could do to reduce inner city violence would be to end the drug war. I'm not a "liberal", at least not the type of liberal you're trying to label me as.

    So to reiterate. I don't give a shit about gun control. That's not my angle. My angle is this: Guns are many, many, many times more dangerous than fists. It is reasonable to more afraid of guns than fists. Period. Dunn's fear was reasonable, at least as reasonable as Zimmerman's. In hindsight it might not appear reasonable because there was no actual gun, but in the heat of the moment (when he did not have perfect knowledge), it was reasonable. Stand Your Ground was written for men like Michael Dunn.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #439
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Uhh, I'm not for gun control. I know I've said this several times before and I know you've read it. The best thing we could do to reduce inner city violence would be to end the drug war. I'm not a "liberal", at least not the type of liberal you're trying to label me as.

    So to reiterate. I don't give a shit about gun control. That's not my angle. My angle is this: Guns are many, many, many times more dangerous than fists. It is reasonable to more afraid of guns than fists. Period. Dunn's fear was reasonable, at least as reasonable as Zimmerman's. In hindsight it might not appear reasonable because there was no actual gun, but in the heat of the moment (when he did not have perfect knowledge), it was reasonable. Stand Your Ground was written for men like Michael Dunn.
    Then the verdict will surprise you. Gun's are more dangerous than fists, but only if they are used aggressively against you.

    There was no action against Dunn, or even any extant firearm to make his fear reasonable.

    There was action against Zimmerman to make his fear reasonable.

    How do you feel about CCW?

  10. #440
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Am I living in bizarro world.
    I don't know what you two are on about.

    No, you generally can't meet non-lethal force with lethal force. If a toddler kicks you in the shins you can't blow his head away.

    What's at issue here is whether there was a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was in fear for his life or of great bodily harm when the evidence points to him getting his face punched and and headed ponded in the pavement.

    If you want to make a law that nobody can respond to a physical beating with a weapon it just seems to me that your putting the weak and elderly at risk.

    I'll say it again and I'll say it a hundred times:
    Hard cases make bad laws

    This is not the case to base any changes to the criminal justice system on.
    Thats a good post but surely there's a jury of peers involved? Although perhaps its going to be a selection of peers who're going to imagine all sorts of fantastic responses to getting your ass kicked that are not responding with a weapon or curling up in a ball and dying.

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