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  1. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    We should discourage folks who carry guns from getting themselves into situations they would have the good sense not to get into without the gun. A criminal happening upon you when you're minding your own business is one thing- chasing a guy down that you THINK MIGHT be a criminal is another thing entirely.
    So you think Zimmerman chased Martin down on foot.

    Why?

  2. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It was just as reasonable as Zimmerman's fear, in fact, I would argue that it was even more reasonable. Martin was unarmed and Zimmerman knew it. Dunn believed Davis was armed.

    You certainly don't expect people to have perfect knowledge going into these situations, right? I mean, there's no way Dunn could have known Davis didn't have a gun in his vehicle. And what if a gun had been found underneath a seat, a gun Dunn didn't actually see? Would that have made Dunn's fear reasonable?
    So you would be more worried about someone you think might be armed, than someone who is pounding your face in?

  3. #413
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post


    The problem is that Zimmerman was allegedly the victim right as of the legally crucial point (or so the court ruled) but was basically the cause of the problem every step of the way up to that point.
    My last contribution to this thread is simply to state that I cannot view this situation in any other terms. Perhaps that's a weakness, especially where the legal system is concerned, but to me the context is highly relevant in determining the actual guilt of Zimmerman.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    So going with the assumption Zimmerman started the fight, but then started to lose, once the imminent threat was over you can't legally continue to beat someone. That's not self-defense. That's assault and battery.** I'd say that if you got the guy on the ground and he's screaming for help - the imminent threat is over. If you continue to fight, the other guy can defend themselves.
    Maybe the most important made thus far.

  5. #415
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I guess the two sides of the national debate are at an impasse, because many people are actually proud of the fact that in this country (at least in some places) the laws ensure that a person has the right and, so far as reasonably possible, the practical capacity to defend themselves and their homes without substantial risk of unwarranted state persecution. I would never want to live in a country where that is not the case.
    It must be said that home invasion is an entirely different barrel of monkeys.
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  6. #416
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Dunn believed he was in danger based on nothing but a hunch.

    Zimmerman was straddled and being punched in the face for 40 seconds before firing. It's hard to think of a situation more dissimilar.
    So you believe that any time someone punches another person in the face a few times, shooting them is acceptable? Wow. Do you just not see the inherent danger in that position? Are you going to send your kids to school armed so they can shoot the bullies who pick fights with them? I'll make sure no one I know has any kids in that school. Your kids would be more dangerous than any bully.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #417
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    We should discourage folks who carry guns from getting themselves into situations they would have the good sense not to get into without the gun. A criminal happening upon you when you're minding your own business is one thing- chasing a guy down that you THINK MIGHT be a criminal is another thing entirely.
    That's interesting.

    There were similar so called "stand your ground" situations in the UK and ROI, home invasions, in the UK one the guy chased two guys off, firings shots and wounding them, he then shot one dead, in the back while he lay in a ditch. This came out eventually rather than immediately.

    There was some talk about how the guy was afraid that they would be back and in greater numbers (like sand people ) but clearly the judgement was that popping caps in that scenario is a lot different to chasing them down.

    In both scenarios the guys involved didnt just receive detention in their sentencing but a lot of support of a psychological or therapeutic nature because they were found to have been living very isolated and reclusive existences, now that was part of what had led to them being targetted by the criminals they killed and there's no question, especially in the ROI example the criminals had long, extensive and violent records whereas the shooters didnt, but all the same the lives they'd been living are bound to have effected their judgement.

    There's a lot of gun fans I know who fit the necrophilious rather than the biophilious mode of thinking or existence, ie prefering dead, mechanical things to living things or people, and that's concerning but I can also easily see how guns could be used to protect or save life too.

  8. #418
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    So you would be more worried about someone you think might be armed, than someone who is pounding your face in?
    If I had just been in a verbal argument with that person, yes. Guns are many, many, many times more dangerous than fists.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So you believe that any time someone punches another person in the face a few times, shooting them is acceptable? Wow. Do you just not see the inherent danger in that position? Are you going to send your kids to school armed so they can shoot the bullies who pick fights with them? I'll make sure no one I know has any kids in that school. Your kids would be more dangerous than any bully.
    I think being ground and pounded for 40 seconds with one's head bouncing off the payment would make me reasonably fear for my life or great bodily harm. In MMA, you know the other or the ref will stop it once you're out, or tap, or can't defend yourself.

    In the street there is no such assurance.

  10. #420
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I guess the two sides of the national debate are at an impasse, because many people are actually proud of the fact that in this country (at least in some places) the laws ensure that a person has the right and, so far as reasonably possible, the practical capacity to defend themselves and their homes without substantial risk of unwarranted state persecution. I would never want to live in a country where that is not the case.
    I am 100% FOR the right to use lethal force to defend yourself and your family in your home (Castle Doctrine?). Once you step outside your home (or off of your property), it's a completely different story.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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