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  1. #31
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    I think Zimmerman got lucky with the technicalities of the situation. I hope he appreciates the light consequence that will result of his actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Oh, and in walking in the dark by himself. Doesn't anyone get taught by their parents that being in the dark by yourself is dangerous anymore?? He was by himself, in the dark, with a guy following him.
    It was before 7:30 PM. Apart from that, anyone should feel safe at any time of day in the globe. I am a night-roamer myself.

  2. #32
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Where are you from?
    WATER PLANET.



    If you're from Florida, you're probably one of the exceptions, but I've met a decent amount of people from Florida, only one person hasn't displayed this bull-headed swagger that comes out of an obsession with maintaining this bullshit image of toughness and "not caring what other people think." Males and females alike. I wonder if it has something to do with being in the South without really being Southern, like putting on an inauthentic, unconvincing show of being salt of the earth.

    I haven't known any other state to fit a behavioral pattern like that with such near-perfect consistency. Although folks from New York City do seem to be incredibly impatient.


    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    I think Zimmerman got lucky with the technicalities of the situation. I hope he appreciates the light consequence that will result of his actions.



    It was before 7:30 PM. Apart from that, anyone should feel safe at any time of day in the globe. I am a night-roamer myself.
    Yeah, I do weird shit like go on nighttime walks at 10:00 PM all the time. I think a society where people aren't free to do that without being "suspicious" has no business calling itself a free society. If we care more about safety than the ability to move about in public spaces while minding your own business, we should stop deluding ourselves about how much we value freedom.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #33
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    I could be wrong, but I think that for most parents, this is something taught to girls but not boys. At least, not teenage boys. In general, it seems that girls are also encouraged to escape conflict while boys are encouraged to fight. Probably in part for strength reasons, in part for outdated gender role reasons. Machoism, etc.
    This seems to be such common sense to me, but you're absolutely right..

    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    It was before 7:30 PM. Apart from that, anyone should feel safe at any time of day in the globe. I am a night-roamer myself.
    I am as well. But what 'should be' and what is are two very different things. Clearly, you are NOT safe at any time of day in the globe. This trial proves that outstandingly clear. Even if he were to be charged for murder, it does nothing to increase the safety of someone walking alone at night.

    Random is right, girls are usually taught to use buddy-systems, to walk in highly lit areas of neighborhoods, and other precautions.. I figured teenagers were all taught this, but these basic safety principles seem completely lost to the opposite sex.

    When exactly did this occur? Daylight savings time makes it dark at 17:30 for half the year.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But what 'should be' and what is are two very different things.
    Yes they are.

    I tend to concern myself with the former, and let others waste their energy on the latter.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I am as well. But what 'should be' and what is are two very different things. Clearly, you are NOT safe at any time of day in the globe. This trial proves that outstandingly clear. Even if he were to be charged for murder, it does nothing to increase the safety of someone walking alone at night.

    Random is right, girls are usually taught to use buddy-systems, to walk in highly lit areas of neighborhoods, and other precautions.. I figured teenagers were all taught this, but these basic safety principles seem completely lost to the opposite sex.
    The point was to iterate that blame cannot be placed on him whatsoever for making a decision to walk outside. The argument is reminiscent of men observing that "she was asking for it" by wearing revealing clothing.

    When exactly did this occur? Daylight savings time makes it dark at 17:30 for half the year.
    It may be dark at 7:30PM, but let's put it into perspective: Many people don't even get out of work until 6PM, restaurants typically don't close until nine, fast food joints until mindnight or later... It really shouldn't even be something to think about in regards to Trayvon's guilt or innocence of action.

    I do feel I kind of cherry picked your post. I should let you know I agreed with most of it - the largest factor of this confrontation was probably a battle of egos.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    If I'm alone in the dark and I confront someone I tend to change my posture (from a distance) in such a way that says "I don't intend harm but I'm still on guard - who are you?"

    I'm also careful not to walk into suspicious areas that might make people think I'm up to no good. I've been stopped by the police for walking through an alley, though.



    Re: confrontations.

    He probably should have left it to the police, however, I don't think it's recklessly irresponsible to take it upon yourself to investigate a suspicious situation. But there are smart ways to do that involving some basic conflict management (really, avoidance) skills. 90% of it is identifying yourself clearly. It's my opinion based on my understanding of what happened that this is where he went wrong. Identify who you are and make your presense known, demonstrate you are no threat but intend to engage them to see who they are. Stalking behavior can feel extremely threatening and is naturally predatory in mindset, if you're walking toward someone to identify what they are doing or who they are then "element of surprise" is extremely ill-advised and the fastest way to induce anxiety for everyone involved, even if it will marginally increase your chances of "catching them in the act.". Let it be known with a lot of distance "I am here". Don't yell, don't even speak that loudly at first. Most people are already pschologically primed in the dark for listening to their environment. Intentional shuffling, tapping, or scraping your shoe against concrete grit can be a good choice to get people's attention before speaking (if you need to speak at all), sudden introduction of voice can be startling. Visual signals like scanning lights, waving with an empty hand, also good.

    This is basic stuff, and even if you have no intention of ever investigating something suspicious it's all just good form for living around people. Just last night I scraped my shoe on concrete grit loudly a block off from a visibly armed security guard who was busy checking if doors were locked, go his attention, noticed tension in his shoulders but waved open hand, his anxiety dropped, waved back. No threat/no threat sort of response. It's pretty unlikely he would have freaked out and shot me for no reason, I might have just startled him a bit had I simply walked up on him, but aside from that why stress people out when it's avoidable? Later I was leaning against a dark wall before getting into my car and noticed a girl walking down the block quickly, moved away from the wall so she could see my silohette, opened my posture, gave just the slighest jingle of keys, moved out of her path, she relaxed a bit and smiled, said hi, I said hi back - it's really simple to turn anxiety provoking situations into calmer ones. On some instinctual level people are more comfortable with a "friendly" around, being by yourself in the dark is kinda scary, so people are almost happy to run into someone.


    I think there is a natural set of night time evolved behavior that is somewhat pre-programmed. If you want to get a feel for the natural responses you'll have go walk through the woods at night, no lights, no bells, just footsteps and voice for noise. If it's your land carry a weapon if you want. If you have this experience you'll understand how your emotions will effect your behavior. Predation is very natual to fall into (hunting behavior), as is panic, the desire to be extremely quiet, crouching and searching, squaring off toward unidentified noises, if you're armed that *will* effect how you think. All sorts of natural responses that make sense in the woods (especially where you ARE the predator) but not always in the city.
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  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I think I said this before the trial started, but I think Zimmerman will be acquitted because Florida has some pretty stupid laws. Zimmerman is absolutely in the wrong, both morally and ethically, but legally...he'll get off because Florida is full of idiots. Zimmerman is a danger to society. I never want that fool walking the streets of my neighborhood. He's a pedophile who goes around shooting people he doesn't like. He should be either locked up for life or executed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by superunknown View Post
    The point was to iterate that blame cannot be placed on him whatsoever for making a decision to walk outside. The argument is reminiscent of men observing that "she was asking for it" by wearing revealing clothing.
    It would be reminiscent of that situation if before getting raped, the girl danced with the guy in question and surreptitiously rubbed his dick through his pants. Your "she deserved it" analogy fails miserably on the fact that it doesn't take into account Martin escalating to violence.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think I said this before the trial started, but I think Zimmerman will be acquitted because Florida has some pretty stupid laws. Zimmerman is absolutely in the wrong, both morally and ethically, but legally...he'll get off because Florida is full of idiots. Zimmerman is a danger to society. I never want that fool walking the streets of my neighborhood. He's a pedophile who goes around shooting people he doesn't like. He should be either locked up for life or executed.
    The general argument I've been hearing from those unhappy with the case (although it hasn't been articulated clearly) is that in your opinion:

    Zimmerman having a CCW knowingly entered into a situation (that he may have otherwise avoided had he not been armed) where his involvement could reasonably be expected to exacerbate the chances of it ending violently. Despite this knowledge Zimmerman got out of his car and, either because of his disdain for the deceased or the false confidence afforded by his concealed weapon (or both), pursued where he otherwise wouldn't have. Further (and I'm not sure if you're pushing the argument this far) he may involved himself because of a desire for a confrontation wherein he could kill the deceased in a legally justifiable manner despite the fact that he set the sequence of events in motion in the first place.

    So basically Zimmerman for whatever reason knowingly created a situation where he could justifiably shoot martin despite the fact that Zimmerman's actions initiated the contact between the two.

    I've thought about it a little and this was the best argument I could come up with for the prosecution (the race argument holds less water than a colander based on the facts).

    So folks are worried for example that someone could provoke another with the intention of killing them and then just let the other party win the fight until they could justifiably kill them.

    Do I have this right?

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It would be reminiscent of that situation if before getting raped, the girl danced with the guy in question and surreptitiously rubbed his dick through his pants. Your "she deserved it" analogy fails miserably on the fact that it doesn't take into account Martin escalating to violence.
    I am speaking of a wider context, not specific to this case. You should be able to walk at night (if you consider 7:30 ever to be "night") without being a criminal, just as a woman should be able to wear revealing clothing without being a slut.

    I know you understood this.

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