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  1. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Actually, from my understanding of the law, even this wasn't the issue. The law is premised such that what the jury had to determine was whether Zimmerman actually felt that a) his life was threatened or b) Martin would not relent if Zimmerman were to decide to extricate himself from the physical altercation between the two of them.

    b) is important because even if Zimmerman were the one who precipitated the confrontation, if he found things weren't going his way (aka he started losing the fight) and tried to back out, if Martin continued to engage him then Zimmerman was within his rights to shoot.

    Either point is problematic because what the jury was essentially ruling on was what Zimmerman was actually feeling the night of the confrontation. And unless they believed--beyond a shadow of a doubt--Zimmerman had no caused to feel threatened, then and only then could he be convicted.
    Pretty good analysis, but in the end you fall a little short.

    Zimmerman didn't just need to feel threatened, he needed to be in reasonable fear of great bodily harm or fear for his life. While they were still standing Zimmerman had neither of these.

    Once he fell and Martin continued to attack him while he was on his back, Zimmerman had a reasonable fear of both GBH and his life.

    If Martin had been content to just break his nose and not ground and pound him, Zimmerman would be guilty of (probably at the most) manslaughter.

    But Martin did follow him to the ground, straddle his torso and continue to punch him. That was the fatal mistake in this instance.

  2. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    I'm frankly less concerned with the media's opinion of the statutes than the exceedingly troublesome situations that seem to crop up as a fact of them.
    The media is the only reason you know anything about these statutes in the first place.

  3. #383
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Why should I consider your opinion on this case as anything but that of a layman?
    Is this statement any less true of you?

  4. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Why would they?
    Because these statutes won't protect a man who's guilty.

    The instant Dunn's guilty verdict is read the media will lose all interest in the case, because the only reason they care about any of this in the first place is that they have used the cases to stir racial tensions (stupidly) and thus ratings.

    If Dunn's guilty, then they have nothing to agitate about, and therefore will lose all interest.

  5. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Is this statement any less true of you?
    Vastly so.

  6. #386
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What was the jury supposed to do, create a mental parallel universe wherein the evidence at hand is less dispositive of who started the physical fight than are their personal convictions and prejudices?
    I don't blame the jury, not really. It's hard to prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. Especially when doubt may be colored (no pun intended) by the race of the parties involved. That's what I'm saying-- the system is flawed.
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  7. #387
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Because these statutes won't protect a man who's guilty.

    The instant Dunn's guilty verdict is read the media will lose all interest in the case, because the only reason they care about any of this in the first place is that they have used the cases to stir racial tensions (stupidly) and thus ratings.

    If Dunn's guilty, then they have nothing to agitate about, and therefore will lose all interest.
    They might get bored because injustice is a better story than justice, but I don't see how that has anything to do with what people think of self-defense laws. The shooter here is claiming self-defense and shot someone, and the similarities to Zimmerman's case pretty much end there. And the mere fact that a law as it exists might still work in a particularly obvious scenario does not clear it of its flaws.

    Just for shits and giggles, though, wouldn't it be funny (yet horrible) if Dunn goes free?
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  8. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    They might get bored because injustice is a better story than justice, but I don't see how that has anything to do with what people think of self-defense laws. The shooter here is claiming self-defense and shot someone, and the similarities to Zimmerman's case pretty much end there. And the mere fact that a law as it exists might still work in a particularly obvious scenario does not clear it of its flaws.

    Just for shits and giggles, though, wouldn't it be funny (yet horrible) if Dunn goes free?
    It would not be funny.

  9. #389
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It would not be funny.
    I hope Dunn is found not guilty. Floridians would be getting what they deserve.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I hope Dunn is found not guilty. Floridians would be getting what they deserve.
    It's telling that you would wish for an abortion of justice just to make you feel better and superior to the residents of Florida.

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