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  1. #251
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    As I said, no evidence that 8 year old Zimmerman committed any such act.
    And if there is no evidence, that means it didn't happen.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #252
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I suppose I just don't share your utter confidence in casting judgment upon people for whom I have no clear evidence. And before you go "well he is a murderer because Trayvon is dead," I would argue that the term murderer (and all the connotations that go with it) is customarily reserved for those people who end another person's life under a certain set of conditions; we do not know for sure what the conditions in this circumstance were.
    I've got no problem judging Zimmerman harshly. Martin is dead because of either Zimmerman's malice or supreme stupidity. In either case, Zimmerman is too dangerous to be allowed to walk the streets.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #253
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And if there is no evidence, that means it didn't happen.
    ...is a formula for the very vigilante justice Z has been accused of.
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  4. #254
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    I suppose I just don't share your utter confidence in casting judgment upon people for whom I have no clear evidence. And before you go "well he is a murderer because Trayvon is dead," I would argue that the term murderer (and all the connotations that go with it) is customarily reserved for those people who end another person's life under a certain set of conditions; we do not know for sure what the conditions in this circumstance were.
    Like I've said, there were a total lack of evidence about everything, it would favor Zimmerman because of reasonable doubt an innocence until proven guilt, but there is a lack of evidence about things except for Zimmerman following Martin and ultimately shooting him dead. That does not favor Zimmerman.

    Anyhow, I just wanted a manslaughter conviction for crying out loud. Like with Casey Anthony, I understand why they let her go on some of the charges, but that she was convicted for nothing flummoxed me.
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  5. #255
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    There isn't proof that he fought with Zimmerman as an aggressor, and their isn't proof that Zimmerman was the aggressor.
    On this, we agree. I disagree about which is more reasonable. Sorry, but fights in school do not excuse Zimmerman's behavior, leading up to the indcident. And I don't see how they explain anything about that incident, which was likely entirely different than the incidents in school.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #256
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    ...is a formula for the very vigilante justice Z has been accused of.
    Wouldn't that be poetic justice. But the nice thing is, we already KNOW that Zimmerman has killed someone, which is a lot more than that fool knew when he was chasing black kids in the dark.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #257
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Excuse me, but what facts prove Martin hit Zimmerman first? I haven't found those facts, so it would be really useful to know. The school suspensions?
    The main point is that the facts available couldn't sufficiently establish who attacked who first, therefore Zimmerman couldn't be proven without reasonable doubt that he committed murder/manslaughter. It's possible that he was defending himself, from a legal standpoint. Like I said, proving absolute guilt is all that matters in the end. The absence of concrete evidence to back up who started the physical altercation one way or the other - & precisely what led up to that gunshot- creates reasonable doubt, regarding his guilt. Conjecture & assumptions aren't enough to declare someone guilty, no matter how convincing.

    It's probably not the most satisfying result, but I mean.. honestly.. I don't know what people were expecting, this is how the legal system works. Either you can back up your accusation/defense with concrete evidence, or you can't. There's no gray area, that's the truth of it.
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  8. #258
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Anyhow, I just wanted a manslaughter conviction for crying out loud.
    Same here. I would have been happy with that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  9. #259
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    ...is a formula for the very vigilante justice Z has been accused of.
    YOU STILL DIDN'T OWN UP TO TAKING MY UNICORN ORNAMENT YOU LOUSY PERP.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  10. #260
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Like I've said, there were a total lack of evidence about everything, it would favor Zimmerman because of reasonable doubt an innocence until proven guilt, but there is a lack of evidence about things except for Zimmerman following Martin and ultimately shooting him dead. That does not favor Zimmerman.

    Anyhow, I just wanted a manslaughter conviction for crying out loud. Like with Casey Anthony, I understand why they let her go on some of the charges, but that she was convicted for nothing flummoxed me.
    I was expecting a manslaughter conviction as well. I will say that there actually isn't clear evidence that Zimmerman followed Martin after being told not to; he claims he didn't. Initially following Martin isn't the relevant issue; the question is whether Zimmerman followed Martin until Martin felt the need to defend himself, or until Zimmerman caught up with him and started the fight. So, at this point the only things we know for sure is that 1) Martin was winning the fight; 2) Zimmerman shot him dead.

    I really wish we could go back in time and have this not happen. If not that, then at least go back in time and see for ourselves what actually happened.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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