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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    There was no knife, and no broken eye socket. His injuries were not life threatening. Why didn't he shoot before Martin was on top of him? I find it interesting that you continue to defend a fool like this. Could you have another agenda other than 'justice' (whatever that means in Florida).
    There was evidence of injury consistent with the facts of the case as they have been laid out by witness testimony (with Trayvon on top of Zimmerman striking him).

    For the defense's argument to work, they don't have to show Zimmerman injured Martin (to whatever degree you would require), they just need to show that 1) it is reasonable to fear for your life in Zimmerman's situation and 2) that Zimmerman had no avenue for escape when the shooting occurred.

    I haven't studied legal precedent in Florida enough to know one way or the other, but I strongly suspect (am almost certain) that it's reasonable to someone to fear GBH and/or death while being straddled and struck. Also since Zimmerman was on his back with Martin on top of him, there was no avenue for retreat. That matters because Stand your ground hasn't been used by the defense in this case (despite what many would have you believe).

    To sum up: In the eyes of Florida law being straddled on the ground and struck repeatedly, creates a situation wherein a reasonable man would fear for his life (or GBH). Martin being on top creates the legal equivalent of the threat posed by the knife in the hypothetical I mentioned before.

    He didn't shoot before Martin got on top of him because he had no reason to fear for his life at that time time. Martin getting on top and continuing to strike him presented that threat which he then responded to.

    That is the one act that Zimmerman was smart about.

    I find it interesting that you aren't getting this. This is day one law school stuff.

    You can make presumptions about my agenda all you want in an effort to impugn my character, but the fact is that I care for the law. Especially considering that it is as deaf as an adder to the clamors of the populace.

  2. #12
    morose bourgeoisie
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    Come on DB. You impugn your character by your own statements (or rather, your cut-n-paste of other people's). I don't have to do anything.
    You clearly do have an agenda, which has everything to do with your entitled, white and/or frat boy upbringing. It's as transparent as water. Sorry, but that's the basic truth. I'm sure mom and dad are proud already.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    My kids walk to the gas station to get snacks. It could have been my kid, except my kids are white. But what's to protect the bi-racial kids that I love like nieces and nephew? Some asshat with a cop complex could kill any one of them and walk. That's what this looks like to me.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanton Moore View Post
    Come on DB. You impugn your character by your own statements (or rather, your cut-n-paste of other people's). I don't have to do anything.
    You clearly do have an agenda, which has everything to do with your entitled, white and/or frat boy upbringing. It's as transparent as water. Sorry, but that's the basic truth. I'm sure mom and dad are proud already.
    What a kind thing to say.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    My kids walk to the gas station to get snacks. It could have been my kid, except my kids are white. But what's to protect the bi-racial kids that I love like nieces and nephew? Some asshat with a cop complex could kill any one of them and walk. That's what this looks like to me.
    Unless your kids also strike first and ask questions later, I don't really see the comparison.

    I would strongly expect your kids to have been taught better than that.

  6. #16
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Unless your kids also strike first and ask questions later, I don't really see the comparison.

    I would strongly expect your kids to have been taught better than that.
    Mine are. I told my oldest that as a person of color, he better keep his head down, his tail tucked and walk in a submissive posture as possible to avoid being cut down. And I'm only half-joking about this.

    I haven't heard anyone say that perhaps Martin had a right to stand his ground. I mean, he was being followed by a stranger. And then possibly confronted by Zimmerman, "Who are you? Where are you going? etc."

    What really saddens me is seeing people's comments in various places that pretty much make this Martin's fault. "Things would have been fine if Martin had just cooperated!" What they really mean is this: Martin's fault was his lack of submission. How dare he defend himself? How dare he talk back? Who did he think he was? Uppity ni****! He was killed for his lack of "No, sir. Yes, sir." He didn't stay in his place. As a black male, he has no right to embrace the stereotypes of what it is to male because it makes him dangerous.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    none of us were there.

    i'm sure you could feel like you were being assaulted without serious injury. i'm sure you could actually BE assaulted without serious injury.*

    zimmerman should have had a flashlight to identify himself and martin and to display who *he* was to martin.

    there is a difference between asserting yourself calmly in a tense situation to avoid escalation and fighting. there is a difference between investigating suspicious elements calmly to assess what they are and going into a situation foolishly assuming only threat.

    i wasn't there, i don't know enough of the facts, i can't cast any judgment.

    it's sad this happened.



    *assault and battery are separate things. assault is (basically) reasonable suspicion you're being attacked and will be caused harm.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #18
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Unless your kids also strike first and ask questions later, I don't really see the comparison.

    I would strongly expect your kids to have been taught better than that.
    All but one of them wouldn't strike first and she could probably get away with first degree murder because she's a tiny, pretty white girl with excellent social skills, but they aren't treated like criminals on a regular basis just for walking down the street. OTOH, my boys are autistic and you can get tazed by real cops for that, so who knows?

    My friend's little boy, though, by the time he's Trayvon's age he'll probably have been harassed hundreds of times for no reason. I could see why someone would lash out under those circumstances, especially when frightened by some creepy ass cracker following him around.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #19
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    If my kids have the misfortune to be followed home from a candy run by a man with a gun, I wouldn't think they were the one in the wrong if they "struck first and asked questions later." And if one of my kids were shot and killed by said man with gun, I would expect that man to be arrested immediately and serve serious time.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    Mine are. I told my oldest that as a person of color, he better keep his head down, his tail tucked and walk in a submissive posture as possible to avoid being cut down. And I'm only half-joking about this.

    I haven't heard anyone say that perhaps Martin had a right to stand his ground. I mean, he was being followed by a stranger. And then possibly confronted by Zimmerman, "Who are you? Where are you going? etc."

    What really saddens me is seeing people's comments in various places that pretty much make this Martin's fault. "Things would have been fine if Martin had just cooperated!" What they really mean is this: Martin's fault was his lack of submission. How dare he defend himself? How dare he talk back? Who did he think he was? Uppity ni****! He was killed for his lack of "No, sir. Yes, sir." He didn't stay in his place. As a black male, he has no right to embrace the stereotypes of what it is to male because it makes him dangerous.
    It's no-one's and everyone's fault like most things in life. But for Zimmerman packing heat, Martin would be alive. But for Zimmerman getting out of his car Martin would be alive. But for Martin striking Zimmerman, Martin would be alive. But for Martin continuing to strike Zimmerman on the ground Martin would be alive.

    All of the actions listed above are of questionable right or wrongness, but in the eyes of the law only two of them incur criminal liability.

    Zimmerman most certainly shouldn't have been so quick to attribute the worst motivations to Martin, and Martin should know not punch someone in the face without a real good reason.

    They all have dirty hands, and unfortunately the events played out the way they did.

    It's a shame someone died especially a minor. It really is.

    I'm a strong supporter of CCW and the Castle Doctrine etc. That's pretty much the only dog I have in this fight.

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