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  1. #151
    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The point is that nobody focuses on what Trayvon did or why he did it. For over a year there was a huge debate over whether or not Z said the word "coons," which was overheard on the taped 911 call as he pursued Trayvon. Did Trayvon attack Z because he is white, and because he matched his own ingrained racist stereotypes of a white cracker? What if Z was a black guy?
    There's probably less debate on what Trayvon did, because he's the one who's dead. There's also a likely chance that Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting Trayvon. The big problem with the case is that so much of it is being treated as a guessing game. Have you been watching the trial? I really haven't, but if it's the case that they're not treating both sides equally, then you're right. Both sides should be given equal consideration.

    As far as I know, however, they have been. There are plenty of instances that try and paint Martin as a ne'er do well who liked porn, weed, and was aggressive. The thing is, all of these reasons suck. That says nothing about whether or not he actually did instigate Zimmerman's response, regardless of whether or not he was capable.

    But Zimmerman's fucked, because he's the one who killed Martin, and there's not enough conclusive evidence to reassure people that he did it out of self defense.


    But this is one of those trials where they're trying to base a decision off a character assessment. Or, in the very least, one that is attempting to manipulate viewers into making a decision based off of the presumed characters of both of the parties involved.

  2. #152
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The point is that nobody focuses on what Trayvon did or why he did it.
    If this is true, a likely reason is that Trayvon is not the person on trial. It's called legal procedure people! In a court of law, you only discuss things that are relevant to the law. Things like the full sequence of events are relevant to the law. The only things relevant to the law are the narrow slice of events the defense attorneys have determined are relevant to the law.


    /sarcasm.

    Martin also happens to be the one who is dead. The most important question is determining whether or not Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death. Is there something Zimmerman could have reasonably been expected to do differently that would have resulted in Martin not being killed? Another important question is whether vigilante justice is something that is beneficial for society. It was my understanding that this was not permitted in our legal system, but I may not be sufficiently informed as to the law. If it is permitted in our legal system, I maintain that it should not be, due to the likely possibility of idiots causing more damage than the criminals they are attempting to stop.

    I do not particular care to what degree Zimmerman is determined to be responsible for Martin's death. I do not care whether it is murder or manslaughter. I do believe, if Zimmerman had behaved more responsibly, Martin would be alive. Because I believe that, I hope that the court decides that he is responsible, in whatever form that might take.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  3. #153
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ism View Post
    There's probably less debate on what Trayvon did, because he's the one who's dead. There's also a likely chance that Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting Trayvon. The big problem with the case is that so much of it is being treated as a guessing game. Have you been watching the trial? I really haven't, but if it's the case that they're not treating both sides equally, then you're right. Both sides should be given equal consideration.

    As far as I know, however, they have been. There are plenty of instances that try and paint Martin as a ne'er do well who liked porn, weed, and was aggressive. The thing is, all of these reasons suck. That says nothing about whether or not he actually did instigate Zimmerman's response, regardless of whether or not he was capable.

    But Zimmerman's fucked, because he's the one who killed Martin, and there's not enough conclusive evidence to reassure people that he did it out of self defense.


    But this is one of those trials where they're trying to base a decision off a character assessment. Or, in the very least, one that is attempting to manipulate viewers into making a decision based off of the presumed characters of both of the parties involved.
    I think character counts for a lot but I also think that not a lot of people think about character these days and its conspicious by its abscence in public thinking and discussion.

    Academic and popular psychology suggest it doesnt even exist, at the extremes of theorising like Dennett et al they're suggesting that consciousness itself is an illusion, choice an illusion, character therefore totally an illusion. Now its impossible to build up a practical philosophy on the back of that or actually live that way and I think its all the natural turn taken from relativism and invalidation of objectivity just because objectivity is more difficult, provenly so, than has been previously posited. However, impossible or abstract as all that may be these things effect the public and individual minds, ideas have consequences, people adopt them or have conscious and unconscious drives to do so for a variety of reasons and so much is simply just unquestionably validated in the process which really deserves more careful consideration instead.

    So given that that's all the case dredging up something like character simply to serve as a possible rescue in a court case seems really, really lousy.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    If this is true, a likely reason is that Trayvon is not the person on trial. It's called legal procedure people! In a court of law, you only discuss things that are relevant to the law. Things like the full sequence of events are relevant to the law. The only things relevant to the law are the narrow slice of events the defense attorneys have determined are relevant to the law.


    /sarcasm.

    Martin also happens to be dead. The most important question is determining whether or not Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death. Is there something Zimmerman could have reasonably been expected to do differently that would have resulted in Martin not being killed? Another important question is whether vigilante justice is something that is beneficial for society. It was my understanding that this was not permitted in our legal system, but I may not be sufficiently informed as to the law. If it is permitted in our legal system, I maintain that it should not be, due to the significant possibility of idiots causing more damage than the criminals they are attempting to stop.
    The whole issue of relevence is a big one I dont think people get, courts and court processes, legal processes are a form of administrative response to things and that's how things like technicalities exist to be exploited or reformed in due time or with political mandates.

    There's been a lot of times I've met people who're not acquainted with legal process or tribunal or other process and they've appeared dangerously naive, expecting sympathy, empathy and wider contexts to play more of a role than they ever will and justice, satisfaction or desserts to play a part which is largely abscent from it all.

  5. #155
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's been a lot of times I've met people who're not acquainted with legal process or tribunal or other process and they've appeared dangerously naive, expecting sympathy, empathy and wider contexts to play more of a role than they ever will and justice, satisfaction or desserts to play a part which is largely abscent from it all.
    Perhaps I am being unrealistic in expecting the wider context to be more relevant, but I wouldn't be surprised if part of the reason the wider context is not as discussed is due to the way the defense attorneys have framed the situation.

    My understanding of the way lawyers work is that they take a set point of data, and then construct arguments around them. They try to find some way to "avoid" data that doesn't help their arguments. The arguments are usually somewhat logical, so the important thing is determining whether or not there is additional data that might contradict that argument. A wide context is important for that, because it allows as much data as possible.

    Of course, sometimes we don't have any data at all.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  6. #156
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Really? Well that's a sort of a dumb tactic, cant see that helping in the fight against crime.
    I can see where Jumaane Williams is coming from. "Proactive" policing means: "There's a black guy, let's go check him out." As a result, NYC has seen a growing policy over the last few years of individuals being targeted for on-the-spot searches simply for walking down the street. They force people - certain people - to prove they are not guilty of being involved in some nefarious deeds.

    In some areas, not just NYC, you will see this "proactive" behavior with neighborhood watch people who are playing cops. How would you like it if you were walking home from the convenience store with a bag, and some big tough dude claiming to be neighborhood watch starts bullying you around asking to see what's in your bag? Yes, it happens.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  7. #157
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Also the argument that racism can't be involved because Zimmerman is Latino is kind of dumb.
    You're being generous,

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Really? Well that's a sort of a dumb tactic, cant see that helping in the fight against crime.
    Actually, I support that. After going through dozens of peoples' case files a day for a couple years, I've found that the race category is incredibly unhelpful. You could practically play a game out of looking at a person's mug shot and the trying to guess what race they were going to be. If you read the name, that's cheating, because if they have the name Rodriguez you know they can't be black or white no matter what they look like. It was terribly absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ism View Post
    There's probably less debate on what Trayvon did, because he's the one who's dead. There's also a likely chance that Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting Trayvon. The big problem with the case is that so much of it is being treated as a guessing game.
    It is a guessing game. There isn't much grounds for it to be anything else. The big thing I keep coming back to is the fact that the only details not in the realm of the guessing game, but instead thoroughly established, reflect very poorly on Zimmerman.
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  8. #158
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ism View Post
    There's probably less debate on what Trayvon did, because he's the one who's dead. There's also a likely chance that Zimmerman wasn't justified in shooting Trayvon. The big problem with the case is that so much of it is being treated as a guessing game. Have you been watching the trial? I really haven't, but if it's the case that they're not treating both sides equally, then you're right. Both sides should be given equal consideration.

    As far as I know, however, they have been. There are plenty of instances that try and paint Martin as a ne'er do well who liked porn, weed, and was aggressive. The thing is, all of these reasons suck. That says nothing about whether or not he actually did instigate Zimmerman's response, regardless of whether or not he was capable.

    But Zimmerman's fucked, because he's the one who killed Martin, and there's not enough conclusive evidence to reassure people that he did it out of self defense.


    But this is one of those trials where they're trying to base a decision off a character assessment. Or, in the very least, one that is attempting to manipulate viewers into making a decision based off of the presumed characters of both of the parties involved.
    There has been maybe a degree of character assessment, but the bigger issue was whether Z was physically strong enough to take on Trayvon.

    Immediately after the incident came to light, pictures were disseminated showing Trayvon as, IIRC, a happy, smiling 14-year-old teen, next to a picture of Z as he is, a larger, adult male. Other propaganda flying from the pro-Trayvon side attempted to make Z out to be the aggressor, and worse, a big tough bully type picking on a little kid who was innocently walking along with a bag of Skittles.

    But what's come out in the trial was the fact that Trayvon was a muscular, athletic 17-year-old in the prime of health, whereas Z is pudgy and out-of-shape.

    As far as non-conclusive evidence, that could lead to a hung jury. However, there is only one story here, and that is Zimmerman's. Therefore they do have conclusive evidence, and that is Zimmerman's story. So if Z wants to claim, whether truthfully or not, that Trayvon was the aggressor, he is free to do so without contradiction. That is conclusive enough as long as Z's story is consistent and convincing.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #159
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    If this is true, a likely reason is that Trayvon is not the person on trial.
    No, the likely reason is that Z is being demonized for a white-on-black crime. But who threw the first punch?

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    It's called legal procedure people! In a court of law, you only discuss things that are relevant to the law. Things like the full sequence of events are relevant to the law. The only things relevant to the law are the narrow slice of events the defense attorneys have determined are relevant to the law.


    /sarcasm.

    Martin also happens to be the one who is dead. The most important question is determining whether or not Zimmerman is responsible for Martin's death. Is there something Zimmerman could have reasonably been expected to do differently that would have resulted in Martin not being killed? Another important question is whether vigilante justice is something that is beneficial for society. It was my understanding that this was not permitted in our legal system, but I may not be sufficiently informed as to the law. If it is permitted in our legal system, I maintain that it should not be, due to the likely possibility of idiots causing more damage than the criminals they are attempting to stop.
    Do we (Zimmerman included) have the right to defend our health and well-being against aggressors? I'm only talking about self-defense here, not stand-your-ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I do not particular care to what degree Zimmerman is determined to be responsible for Martin's death. I do not care whether it is murder or manslaughter. I do believe, if Zimmerman had behaved more responsibly, Martin would be alive. Because I believe that, I hope that the court decides that he is responsible, in whatever form that might take.
    Of course Z is responsible for Trayvon's death. He killed the "poor little boy who was innocently walking back to his gf's house with an Arizona ice tea and a bag of Skittles." What you're asking about is the degree of legal liability involved in Trayvon's demise. That depends on the laws of the jurisdiction the incident occurred in, not on your hopes, wishes, and dreams about the case.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #160
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Actually, I support that. After going through dozens of peoples' case files a day for a couple years, I've found that the race category is incredibly unhelpful. You could practically play a game out of looking at a person's mug shot and the trying to guess what race they were going to be. If you read the name, that's cheating, because if they have the name Rodriguez you know they can't be black or white no matter what they look like. It was terribly absurd.
    Incorrect. You wouldn't believe the number of white females running around with Hispanic last names, especially in the area I live in.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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