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  1. #131
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Yeah, us racists love to take the side of a multi-racial person.

    I think racism is at play here. I think people know that a black man in this situation would be found guilty or (more likely) taken a plea deal for many years in prison. Which is probably true. But, that's a reason to seek to try to bring more justice to the system rather than just spread injustice.
    I didn't say you were racist, I said racism would look better on you.
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  2. #132
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I didn't say you were racist, I said racism would look better on you.
    Lol

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  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Lol


  4. #134
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My concept of innocent until proven guilty is that you do not conclude someone accused of being a killer is a killer unless you have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    My concept of innocent until proven guilty is not that a man proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to have killed someone should get off in the absence of additional of evidence proving he didn't have good reason to kill someone.
    There is actually a huge difference between shadow of a doubt and reasonable doubt, and its the latter that, by necessity, is the legal standard.

    In your scenario, its already been established that a physical altercation took place before any shooting happened; in order to know that (and other facts of the case, such as the fact that the person with a gun was following the killed person), there must either be credible witnesses or some form of physical evidence. Those witnesses and/or physical evidence are needed to determine the other details you have left out. Killing is indeed a highly suspicious activity in the absence of other details, that's why the killer would be either a murder suspect or a person of interest until the investigation is completed. The relevant question is, "How and why do we know that a person killed the other person?", which necessarily points to the existence of some form of evidence you didn't disclose, evidence which we already know about in the case of Zimmerman and Martin.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, really. I am amazed that absolute certainty that a man followed and killed someone is essentially meaningless to you. The position being taken here by those on Zimmerman's side is that following and killing someone in and of itself has pretty much no weight in the absence of other details. That sounds completely inverse of both what I think is right and how I thought the law worked. If you know the following and murdering part happened, the other details are needed to remove weight.

    And I mean, it's amazing that all of you are Republicans (am I correct?) I've spent so many years hearing how proud Republicans are of being tough on crime, and you give me this. Such weakness it would vicariously embarrass a hippie.

    I can't believe a guy who's done what we know Zimmerman to have done, is supposed to get off without even a slap on the wrist because of an argument that amounts just assuming the very best about the guy.

    The racism accusations of racism come up is because that would kind of rationally make sense. If you were all racists, I'd totally understand why you're taking the positions you take. In absence of racism, you all just come across like you're from bizarro world. You have all of your assumptions, and all of the places you do or don't call for more evidence, backwards.

    My concept of innocent until proven guilty is that you do not conclude someone accused of being a killer is a killer unless you have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    My concept of innocent until proven guilty is not that a man proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to have killed someone should get off in the absence of additional of evidence proving he didn't have good reason to kill someone.

    What I'm seeing here is not innocent until prove guilty, it's the assertion that murder is not crime, but rather that only murder for a stupid reason is a crime, and in absence of evidence of the latter, we assume it's the former (whereas I thought left with no other details we assume the worst about someone killing another human being, silly me).

    And how is it reasonable for Zimmerman to assume that Martin was somehow a threat and try to "protect his neighborhood" from him, but it's not reasonable for me to assume Martin may not have warranted being followed or being shot?
    I haven't really followed this thread, nor the trial, closely, but the complete tunnel vision that is patently obvious in your line of argument reveals everything that is wrong about the way you approach the world, and why nothing you say is worth listening to.

  6. #136
    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    As far as I'm concerned, the most eyebrow raising thing about the whole story was that the police department apparently dragged its feet on looking into the situation. However, everyone seemed to decide to forget about that quite some time ago. I've had nothing to say as long as the discussion was all about team Zimmerman vs team Martin.

    And frankly I'm tired of how court proceedings have displaced hockey as the fourth most popular professional sport in the USA.
    According to my mom, who works in the area, a lot of people are racist there. Not crazy extreme racist, but the kind of racist that is ingrained and unaware of itself. I think that's the reason why, but I could be wrong. There's that implicit notion that 'oh, well, it's not like a black kid hasn't gotten shot for something he didn't deserve before,' so there's apathy.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ism View Post
    According to my mom, who works in the area, a lot of people are racist there. Not crazy extreme racist, but the kind of racist that is ingrained and unaware of itself. I think that's the reason why, but I could be wrong. There's that implicit notion that 'oh, well, it's not like a black kid hasn't gotten shot for something he didn't deserve before,' so there's apathy.
    Please explain racism that is "unaware of itself."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #138
    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Please explain racism that is "unaware of itself."
    Basically, people who are racist, but don't know it. See my example, for instance. And I consider the example racist because it automatically assumes negative characteristics specifically tied to a particular race.

  9. #139
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ism View Post
    Basically, people who are racist, but don't know it. See my example, for instance. And I consider the example racist because it automatically assumes negative characteristics specifically tied to a particular race.
    How do you distinguish racism from prejudice?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #140
    Senior Member Ism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    How do you distinguish racism from prejudice?
    Racism involves prejudice, but not necessarily the other way around.

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