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  1. #121
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honor View Post
    Excuse my ignorance in this matter (I reluctantly admit that I've been busy have not kept up with media coverage of this very much until I watched CNN today) but do people think that the jury of mostly white women are going to be sympathetic to Zimmerman because of race? I think they might be sympathetic to Trayvon because they might be imagining their child in that situation.
    There could be a lot of motives involved, for instance, being angry about the local crime rate.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #122
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    So tell me, where was the self-defense on Trayvon's part?
    Martin had valid reason to fear someone who appeared to be following him, first in a car and then on foot, especially if he saw the gun. Its the type of situation that can easily be misconstrued.

  3. #123
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If you were presented with that scenario, what charge would you seek for the surviving man who followed and ultimately shot the deceased?
    Without any further information? Nothing, I would question the survivor and any other witnesses available in order to get further information. In any event, we already know why Zimmerman was following Martin, why he had a gun, and that the physical evidence strongly suggest that Martin started the physical side of the altercation.

  4. #124
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Martin had valid reason to fear someone who appeared to be following him, first in a car and then on foot, especially if he saw the gun. Its the type of situation that can easily be misconstrued.
    Where did Trayvon ever say he saw a gun? When he was on the phone with his gf who can't read cursive handwriting and lied in her testimony?

    What matters is that Trayvon reacted to his fear with violence. In other words, he was not only afraid, he was also angry at the "creepy white ass cracker."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #125
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm a little astonished that killing someone is such an unsuspicious activity.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #126
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I'm a little astonished that killing someone is such an unsuspicious activity.
    You're out of your element.

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  7. #127
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You're out of your element.
    No, really. I am amazed that absolute certainty that a man followed and killed someone is essentially meaningless to you. The position being taken here by those on Zimmerman's side is that following and killing someone in and of itself has pretty much no weight in the absence of other details. That sounds completely inverse of both what I think is right and how I thought the law worked. If you know the following and murdering part happened, the other details are needed to remove weight.

    And I mean, it's amazing that all of you are Republicans (am I correct?) I've spent so many years hearing how proud Republicans are of being tough on crime, and you give me this. Such weakness it would vicariously embarrass a hippie.

    I can't believe a guy who's done what we know Zimmerman to have done, is supposed to get off without even a slap on the wrist because of an argument that amounts just assuming the very best about the guy.

    The racism accusations of racism come up is because that would kind of rationally make sense. If you were all racists, I'd totally understand why you're taking the positions you take. In absence of racism, you all just come across like you're from bizarro world. You have all of your assumptions, and all of the places you do or don't call for more evidence, backwards.

    My concept of innocent until proven guilty is that you do not conclude someone accused of being a killer is a killer unless you have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    My concept of innocent until proven guilty is not that a man proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to have killed someone should get off in the absence of additional of evidence proving he didn't have good reason to kill someone.

    What I'm seeing here is not innocent until prove guilty, it's the assertion that murder is not crime, but rather that only murder for a stupid reason is a crime, and in absence of evidence of the latter, we assume it's the former (whereas I thought left with no other details we assume the worst about someone killing another human being, silly me).

    And how is it reasonable for Zimmerman to assume that Martin was somehow a threat and try to "protect his neighborhood" from him, but it's not reasonable for me to assume Martin may not have warranted being followed or being shot?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #128
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, really. I am amazed that absolute certainty that a man followed and killed someone is essentially meaningless to you. The position being taken here by those on Zimmerman's side is that following and killing someone in and of itself has pretty much no weight in the absence of other details.
    Zimmerman may have followed, but Trayvon attacked Zimmerman.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #129
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, really. I am amazed that absolute certainty that a man followed and killed someone is essentially meaningless to you. The position being taken here by those on Zimmerman's side is that following and killing someone in and of itself has pretty much no weight in the absence of other details. That sounds completely inverse of both what I think is right and how I thought the law worked. If you know the following and murdering part happened, the other details are needed to remove weight.

    And I mean, it's amazing that all of you are Republicans (am I correct?) I've spent so many years hearing how proud Republicans are of being tough on crime, and you give me this. Such weakness it would vicariously embarrass a hippie.

    I can't believe a guy who's done what we know Zimmerman to have done, is supposed to get off without even a slap on the wrist because of an argument that amounts just assuming the very best about the guy.

    The racism accusations of racism come up is because that would kind of rationally make sense. If you were all racists, I'd totally understand why you're taking the positions you take. In absence of racism, you all just come across like you're from bizarro world. You have all of your assumptions, and all of the places you do or don't call for more evidence, backwards.
    Yeah, us racists love to take the side of a multi-racial person.

    I think racism is at play here. I think people know that a black man in this situation would be found guilty or (more likely) taken a plea deal for many years in prison. Which is probably true. But, that's a reason to seek to try to bring more justice to the system rather than just spread injustice.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  10. #130
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Yeah, us racists love to take the side of a multi-racial person.

    I think racism is at play here. I think people know that a black man in this situation would be found guilty or (more likely) taken a plea deal for many years in prison. Which is probably true. But, that's a reason to seek to try to bring more justice to the system rather than just spread injustice.
    Racist motive is irrelevant to the trial, however, a lesson well-learned from the OJ trial.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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