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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's taken care of in almost all states.

    It's called felony murder.

    You really don't know what you're talking about.
    Precisely. It's like trying explain red to a blind man.

    The biggest head scratcher to me is how he can, at this point, still construe the facts as supporting any explanation of the events that unfolded besides self defense.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) You're supposed to address issues relating to self-defense and original instigation.

    2.) I don't consider it unreasonable to want to protect your neighborhood when its experiencing a crime wave (Zimmerman was unreasonably obsessive about it, but its not something that's unreasonable in principle). As for Zimmerman starting the incident, so did the robber in the convenience store scenario; it doesn't mean they can't later be victims in their respective scenarios....especially if the instigation was unrelated to any crime.

    3.) All four people in these scenarios have something in common with each character in the other scenario; for example, neither the convenience store owner nor Martin asked to put in that situation, and both gave in to their survival instincts to protect themselves (as did Zimmerman). I don't deny that Zimmerman instigated the incident, only that manslaughter (much less murder) is an inappropriate charge against someone who a.) committed no crime and b.) was acting in self-defense. The fact that Martin ended up being killed by the sequence of events that Zimmerman's actions instigated means that charges along the lines of reckless endangerment might be appropriate, however.
    Z instigated WHAT incident? Following somebody? Who attacked first? You don't hit someone and bang their head against the sidewalk in "self-defense" simply for being followed.

    So tell me, where was the self-defense on Trayvon's part?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #103
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    I dont think Martin slammed GZ's head against the pavement.

    Having watched quite a few fights as an MMA enthusiast, I bet Martin was hitting him hard enough that his head snapped backward into the pavement.

    Given that Martin had mounted Zim, it's much easier to punch than bend over and slam their head down. That doesn't mitigate the liability incurred, but does seem to be a more plausible explanation to this humble observer.

  4. #104
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  5. #105
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I dont think Martin slammed GZ's head against the pavement.

    Having watched quite a few fights as an MMA enthusiast, I bet Martin was hitting him hard enough that his head snapped backward into the pavement.

    Given that Martin had mounted Zim, it's much easier to punch than bend over and slam their head down. That doesn't mitigate the liability incurred, but does seem to be a more plausible explanation to this humble observer.
    This point has already been dealt with in court.

    http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06...immerman-trial

    And forensics indicate that Z's head wound was consistent with the angle of attack.
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,6005164.story

    And just for fun, here is that Jeantel chick, who believes white people are "crackers" (although this is not a racist statement, of course!), being demolished on the stand:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...6#.UeAv6Kwpi_I
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #106
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    If it's possible, let's separate this concept from Zimmerman and Martin.

    We can imagine a scenario, and I'm sure many real scenarios like this one happen around the country.

    We have a case where the only absolutely certain facts are these:
    An individual pursued another individual for some unclear reason, while carrying a gun.
    The individual being followed did not have a weapon.
    The individual being followed eventually confronted the follower.
    Some manner of physical altercation followed from this at some point.
    The altercation ultimately resulted in the follower fatally shooting the individual they followed.


    Suppose all other information added to this case is muddy. Why the one individual chose to follow the other. When and why the followed confronted the follower. Who started the physical altercation, Etc...
    Suppose all of that has swung this way and the other, and left us with no satisfyingly confident conclusions, thus leaving us again with only the certanties colored in green. If you were presented with that scenario, what charge would you seek for the surviving man who followed and ultimately shot the deceased?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    This point has already been dealt with in court.

    http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/06...immerman-trial

    And forensics indicate that Z's head wound was consistent with the angle of attack.
    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/n...,6005164.story

    And just for fun, here is that Jeantel chick, who believes white people are "crackers" (although this is not a racist statement, of course!), being demolished on the stand:
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...6#.UeAv6Kwpi_I
    You know, we have largely avoided the topic about race here so far. Mark my words, the more it is about race, the more it works against Zimmerman's case. You'd be better off not bringing it up.
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  7. #107
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    The pro-Trayvon side can't even get its own facts straight.

    After a year and a half of being told that Trayvon was a 17-year-old child, how do they explain this?
    http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/11/justic...ial/?hpt=hp_c2

    "The truth does not lie," de la Rionda said. "... So how does he manage to get it out and get a perfect shot to the heart of a 17-year-old man?"

    Trayvon has gone from "child" or "boy" - to "man"?

    Which is it?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #108
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If it's possible, let's separate this concept from Zimmerman and Martin.

    We can imagine a scenario, and I'm sure many real scenarios like this one happen around the country.

    We have a case where the only absolutely certain facts are these:
    An individual pursued another individual for some unclear reason, while carrying a gun.
    The individual being followed did not have a weapon.
    The individual being followed eventually confronted the follower.
    Some manner of physical altercation followed from this at some point.
    The altercation ultimately resulted in the follower fatally shooting the individual they followed.


    Suppose all other information added to this case is muddy. Why the one individual chose to follow the other. When and why the followed confronted the follower. Who started the physical altercation, Etc...
    Suppose all of that has swung this way and the other, and left us with no satisfyingly confident conclusions, thus leaving us again with only the certanties colored in green. If you were presented with that scenario, what charge would you seek for the surviving man who followed and ultimately shot the deceased?



    You know, we have largely avoided the topic about race here so far. Mark my words, the more it is about race, the more it works against Zimmerman's case. You'd be better off not bringing it up.
    How has race played a role in the trial itself? And if race is so vastly important, why hasn't the prosecution mentioned it? Or have they?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #109
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Here it is:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505263_1...g-expert-says/

    Will playing the race card work in this case?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #110
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    "The judge in the George Zimmerman murder trial ruled in June that the term "profiling" can be used in the case, but not as it relates to race."

    Why, it must be some creepy white cracker of a judge then!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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