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  1. #51
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Typically the American government refuses to do the right thing until the very last moment. However they can be persuaded to do the right thing.

    For instance, Australia was asked in 1999 by the United Nations to end the genocide in East Timor. This meant facing down the Indonesian Army of one million men, on their own territory.

    We didn't even have troop ships to get our soldiers across the Timor Sea from Australia to East Timor, so we requisitioned civilian catamaranes to do the job. And naturally, under our ANZUS Treaty we asked our friend and ally, America, for a hand.

    But guess what, our big friend and ally refused to help. So we had to shout at the Americans long and loud before they changed their mind, then the American Ambassador in Djakarta let the Indonesians know that America would be displeased if the Australians were slaughted.

    This was all we needed, and Australians, completely unarmed, landed in East Timor and advanced up the beach to meet the Indonesian generals, who forbore to fire on unarmed men. And so East Timor was liberated.
    US government is going to keep using "terrorism" as an excuse for everything for as long as it can get away with it. Things may eventually change, but it's going to take a major collapse, or revolution, or something. They won't change on their own. The Constitution was abandoned a long time ago.
    You lose.

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  2. #52
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Wow, Americans, you need to get out more.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #53
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    After this post, I'm done crapping in the thread for the night.


    This clip shows how we shouldn't let logic get in the way with politics. People that use logic with politics and international affairs are like that guy with the weird forehead who doesn't want Rambo to go in to rescue his friend because of creating an international incident. Just help the Mujihadeen fellas out because it's the right thing to do!



    Snowden is like the weird-headed guy in the video. Why, he probably can't even wipe out an entire soviet army by himself. He doesn't even have glycerine all over him to show how much of a workout he's getting. Sometimes, we just have to do what's right, and thinking about it too much allows evil to triumph. The U.S. government is doing the right thing because we have the word liberty on our coins. Liberty is an awesome word. Russian money, meanwhile, has the word tyranny on it, which is not an awesome word.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  4. #54
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm astounded particularly at this "if he valued freedom" claim. The work the NSA does with PRISM and similar programs is, it would seem, very, very wide reaching. And you didn't know it was there. The people who set this up and maintain it have vastly overreached their mandate to forestall terrorism, even as that mandate is vague and frankly weird to begin with. So think of the resources involved, and the overweening sense of "national security" that must drive this apparatus if greed for budget money doesn't. And you want to trot out some old fashion patriotism about who loves freedom best? You have a giant state apparatus creeping through the world and coming back to your doorstep. Loving freedom has nearly nothing to do with the institutional power your government has on tap to put down opponents.

    The only thing on your side was "we're the good guys". But you're not anymore.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #55
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    US government is going to keep using "terrorism" as an excuse for everything for as long as it can get away with it. Things may eventually change, but it's going to take a major collapse, or revolution, or something. They won't change on their own. The Constitution was abandoned a long time ago.
    Jihad is ongoing and will be with us for generations.

    As I write, the jihadis are using the United Nations to make free speech an international crime, and the Free Speech Amendment to the USA Constitution stands in their way.

  6. #56
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    I'm astounded particularly at this "if he valued freedom" claim. The work the NSA does with PRISM and similar programs is, it would seem, very, very wide reaching. And you didn't know it was there. The people who set this up and maintain it have vastly overreached their mandate to forestall terrorism, even as that mandate is vague and frankly weird to begin with. So think of the resources involved, and the overweening sense of "national security" that must drive this apparatus if greed for budget money doesn't. And you want to trot out some old fashion patriotism about who loves freedom best? You have a giant state apparatus creeping through the world and coming back to your doorstep. Loving freedom has nearly nothing to do with the institutional power your government has on tap to put down opponents.
    The only thing on your side was "we're the good guys". But you're not anymore.
    Our coins have the word liberty on them. Russian money has the word tyranny on it. I think that tells us pretty clearly which country is the good guy which never ever does anything wrong when we have a President from the right political party in power.

    How can you claim we don't value liberty when the word is in all our patriotic songs? The russian anthem is all about how oppression is awesome, so if we really valued oppression over liberty, it would be in our anthem.

    National security is important, though. There are people out there who are mad at the U.S because we haven't invaded their country yet to give them freedom. While we understand why they are unhappy for not having freedom, we do need to protect ourselves from those people. Terrorists are almost as dangerous as teenagers who look like they might be on drugs.

    Never forget! We are only a few months away from the 12th anniversary of 9/11, so I think it's important to remind people that 9/11 happened. You guys all remember when those terrorists flew planes into that skyscraper, right? I was worried you might forget if we didn't remember every year.

    I'm shocked at my fellow NTs for being so naive. I thought we were better than that.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    There are people out there who are mad at the U.S because we haven't invaded their country yet to give them freedom.
    No one wants their country invaded by the US in the name of freedom.

    We will fight for our religion and we will fight for our country and we will certainly fight invaders.

    And perhaps you might like to remember that, at the Nurenberg War Crime Trials, aggression by invasion is a war crime.

  8. #58
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    How else can we act as a civilizing force if we can't use our military to give people freedom for 100% altruistic reasons? Freedom has to be won by hard struggles, it's not like getting a massage at Suzy's. Granted, not my hard struggles, I can't live without watching celebrity dance competitions, but for just causes, there are always people willing to make the sacrifices.

    Freedom invasions are important because they are excellent ways to spread the fruits of civilization like reason. In western countries, people don't believe in stuff just because some imam or propaganda minister says so. They believe in stuff because a "thought leader" says so. Clearly, we have no room for improvement, and so our goods are ready for export. And the best way to give people freedom is through invasions, like the wonderfully well-thought out and necessary Iraq invasion.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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  9. #59
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    How else can we act as a civilizing force if we can't use our military to give people freedom for 100% altruistic reasons? Freedom has to be won by hard struggles, it's not like getting a massage at Suzy's. Granted, not my hard struggles, I can't live without watching celebrity dance competitions, but for just causes, there are always people willing to make the sacrifices.
    Nah, we won't die for freedom but we will die for our country, our religion or our family.

    Invasion in the name of freedom is a war crime.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    It's because he donated to Ron Paul, right?
    Um no I actually didn't know that until fairly recently. I thought it from the beginning. But that certainly doesn't help his case.

    Intelligence is a normal and integral part of world affairs. I mean what dipshit works for the CIA and is ever-so-surprised that the U.S. is spying on suspicious parties or countries that are perceived as a potential hostile threat. Does this guy understand what the CIA is?

    And Lord Putin being a person of interest isn't an American media fantasy either, many Russians will tell you the same about him. So golly gee whiz, why would U.S. intelligence be looking at him?

    I have a very pragmatic outlook about world affairs, because I don't imagine we live in a bubble where if we just handed everyone flowers we'd get along.

    Do I think the U.S. makes mistakes? Yes I do. Do I think the U.S. is perfect? No I don't. Do I think living under the U.S. government is preferable to living in China, Russia, Nicaragua or Cuba? Most certainly.

    This guy is totally batshit. "Hi I donated five hundred bucks to Ron Paul last year, but I'd like to be granted asylum in historically communist countries, just because it suits my purpose if Iceland won't take me."

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