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  1. #141
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    The only difference is that one is justified and the other one is not.

    A nation is formed when a gang bands together, have renowned showing around the world, and is seen as a state by other states.

    Pre-Rome started with a gang of misfits of their time.
    I think if you were prepared to read Ancient Greek Philosophy, Judaism, Christianity, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, you might be able to distinguish between a gang and liberal democracy.

  2. #142
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    I think if you were prepared to read Ancient Greek Philosophy, Judaism, Christianity, the Renaissance, and the Enlightenment, you might be able to distinguish between a gang and liberal democracy.
    One see's Democracy and Oligarchy as diametrically related while Democracy descends into Tyranny.

    In extreme forms, Democracy is the gang of the many, while Oligarchy is the gang of the few.

    While one see's Democracy as beautiful because of its plurality, one that is extreme in either forms will move one into one direction or one to the other.

    In the Republic, Socrates believes a Democracy and a Democratic Soul to be beautiful because of its plurality, but that it is one step closer to Tyranny in the hands of people who has unnecessary desires. The only way to keep it from descending is by stopping these desires. But because a Democratic soul has a pluralistic soul, one NEEDS to keep these unnecessary desires in check.

    In Politics, Aristotle sees Democracy to be very similar to Oligarchy, he see both as the two bad forms of government but that can be controlled.

    One should look at people with skepticism because not everyone, with the exception of the few, are ideally virtuous.

    Or something of that sort. Once I finish Greek and Roman thought, I may end up reading Medieval and Enlightenment thought next.

  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    One see's Democracy and Oligarchy as diametrically related while Democracy descends into Tyranny.

    In extreme forms, Democracy is the gang of the many, while Oligarchy is the gang of the few.

    While one see's Democracy as beautiful because of its plurality, one that is extreme in either forms will move one into one direction or one to the other.

    In the Republic, Socrates believes a Democracy and a Democratic Soul to be beautiful because of its plurality, but that it is one step closer to Tyranny in the hands of people who has unnecessary desires. The only way to keep it from descending is by stopping these desires. But because a Democratic soul has a pluralistic soul, one NEEDS to keep these unnecessary desires in check.

    In Politics, Aristotle sees Democracy to be very similar to Oligarchy, he see both as the two bad forms of government but that can be controlled.

    One should look at people with skepticism because not everyone, with the exception of the few, are ideally virtuous.

    Or something of that sort. Once I finish Greek and Roman thought, I may end up reading Medieval and Enlightenment thought next.
    Liberal democracy does not depend on the virtuous. Quite the opposite, for liberal democracy recognises that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so the genius of liberal democracy is not to abolish power but to limit power. This is done by such conventions as the Separation of Powers.

    And of course liberal democracy is the fruit of 3,000 years of Western culture.

    And in particular liberal democracy is the fruit of the invention of printing which lead to counter intuitive thought and so to science, modern economics and liberal democracy.

    No gang has this pedigree. And it is this pedigree which is your heritage.

  4. #144
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    My nation is based on the limitation of power, whereas gangs are based on the maximization of power.
    You are mixing apples and oranges, or rather external and internal. Both nations and gangs aim to maximize their power relative to other nations or gangs (external). The limitation of power you describe, on the other hand, is internal, limiting the power of one group within the nation or gang over other groups, as when we protect minorities from a majority. Nations can have little internal limitation of power, as with an autocracy; while gangs can be surprisingly democratic in how they are run. Neither organization fits a cookie-cutter mold.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are mixing apples and oranges, or rather external and internal. Both nations and gangs aim to maximize their power relative to other nations or gangs (external). The limitation of power you describe, on the other hand, is internal, limiting the power of one group within the nation or gang over other groups, as when we protect minorities from a majority. Nations can have little internal limitation of power, as with an autocracy; while gangs can be surprisingly democratic in how they are run. Neither organization fits a cookie-cutter mold.
    What you are saying is true. Liberal democracy is an internal polity. There is no international liberal democracy.

    However gangs can be democratic in an egalitarian way. Gangs can be small enough for each member to have a voice. However liberal democracy has evolved over many centuries to limit power in polities of millions of citizens.

    Liberal democracy and the limitation of power is a great achievement of literate societies, while gangs are small units devoted to maximising the power of the gang.

  6. #146
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Liberal democracy does not depend on the virtuous. Quite the opposite, for liberal democracy recognises that power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely, so the genius of liberal democracy is not to abolish power but to limit power. This is done by such conventions as the Separation of Powers.

    And of course liberal democracy is the fruit of 3,000 years of Western culture.

    And in particular liberal democracy is the fruit of the invention of printing which lead to counter intuitive thought and so to science, modern economics and liberal democracy.

    No gang has this pedigree. And it is this pedigree which is your heritage.
    The powers that be are also the United separation of powers. Much like how Australia, Canada, United States, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom are all in this together.

    Julius Caesar pitied his Senate when he asked them to make bills for him to "sign." Much like how there is a fortitude of bills that Congress must sign or else one shall lose a seat in the upper/lower house. Those with money are the ones that create laws. The people of many have a harder time creating these laws.

    80 years ago, much of what these Separation of Powers, were in fact, Separation of Powers. Today, ever since World War II, it has gone far beyond that.

    Liberal Democracy is far from perfect in that it is imperfect. One would have different interpretations on what form of government is best. Some would say the life of a Spartan was better than Athens, some say the Spartan life may even be better than our current way of life.

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Liberal Democracy is far from perfect
    Liberal democracy works for imperfect human beings.

    And as they say, liberal democracy is the worst system except for all the others.

  8. #148
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    Edward Snowden had created danger for Australia.

    Indonesia and Australia are geographically close neighbours, but whereas Indonesia is the largest muslim country in the world, Australia embodies the values of the European Enlightenment.

    And thanks to Edward Snowden Indonesia has withdrawn its embassador to Australia, Indonesia has said it will review all its agreements with Australia, and Indonesia has hacked into our security service and 150 Australian businesses.

    And Indonesia, against the wishes and soveignity of Australia, runs a corrupt people trafficking business into Australia.

    And this is just the beginning, we understand from the President of Indonesia that more retaliation is to come.

    On the face of it, it seems odd as we supported Indonesian Independence. We support Indonesian territorial integrity. We give aid to Indonesia, and indeed we gave one thousand million dollars to Indonesia in just one gift alone.

    So we are starting to see the damage Edward Snowden has done.

  9. #149
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Liberal democracy works for imperfect human beings.

    And as they say, liberal democracy is the worst system except for all the others.
    That is only if people consider one another to be equals. Do you consider you and your countrymen to be equals?

    When is a system the best when that system does not follow the Rule of the Law, or decides to change the the Rule of the Law for their benefit?

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    That is only if people consider one another to be equals. Do you consider you and your countrymen to be equals?

    When is a system the best when that system does not follow the Rule of the Law, or decides to change the the Rule of the Law for their benefit?
    I don't quite know what you are refering to, but I am equal under Australian Law. And the Law can only be changed by an Act of Parliament.

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