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  1. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Why is it a shitty comparison? "If the Dalai Lama were truly moral, he would face the Chinese authorities and own up to his beliefs!" Why the hell isn't he a coward? Because he's a person that you like, and Snowden is a person that you hate (probably because you're worried that what he did might affect elections)? Is that your reasoning? I guess that makes sense in it's own way, but I fail to see how that's morality.

    You're right about the bird, though. It just came out that the LAX shooter had a pet bird as a kid, and was also an INTP upset about not being famous. Truly moral people keep pack animals as pets while preventing them from interacting with any of their own kind!
    The Dalai Lama is a humble spiritual leader who fled Chinese rule of his country. Snowden on the other hand is some guy who had a cushy life in the country he lived and worked for, was dating a stripper, who doesn't want to own up to any wrongdoing, he broke the law, even if he morally disagreed. The U.S. was not going to kill him. Putin probably will.

    As for birds, I also think declawing cats is cruel, but aside from any ethical belief I have, it is utterly illogical for you to compare trimming your nails, an action that is a mere bit of grooming as you go about your day, to taking away one of the bird's essential bird functions.

    You make poor analogies and attempt to cover it with hostile sarcasm. Not logical at all.


    What you said at the end there was also just ridiculous, it is becoming impossible to take you seriously. I never said you or INTPs or bird owners were bad people, let alone terrorists. Jesus.

  2. #112
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    I have no sympathy for him.

    I agree some of the things should have been disclosed, yes. But he was a coward and didn't stay to face the consequences, and a lot of what he's disclosed truly has been damaging to national secrets. Particularly the issues of international spying.

    Rule #1 of Spying: Everybody Spies.

    It's not news, and making public our capabilities is just disgusting. He isn't a hero, he's a coward who hurt our national security and is living it up by running to two of our biggest diplomatic enemies.
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  3. #113
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Snowden on the other hand is some guy who had a cushy life in the country he lived and worked for.
    Ummm, I see nothing wrong with a person who was living "comfortably" doing such a thing, nor do I see any "wrongdoing" on his behalf. All roads lead to Hitler. One does not need to live comfortably to defy orders.

    Again, many before him have tried to bring similar issues up, many of them were slapped in the wrist.

    There are many more issues that has been brought up that is more important.

    It certainly helps that Snowden is talked about in a monthly basis.

    For that, I think he aided the American people more than he has done to hurt it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    I have no sympathy for him.

    I agree some of the things should have been disclosed, yes. But he was a coward and didn't stay to face the consequences, and a lot of what he's disclosed truly has been damaging to national secrets. Particularly the issues of international spying.

    Rule #1 of Spying: Everybody Spies.

    It's not news, and making public our capabilities is just disgusting. He isn't a hero, he's a coward who hurt our national security and is living it up by running to two of our biggest diplomatic enemies.
    Lost in this discussion that seems to be parroted often: Others have tried. Some of them either have gotten slapped in the wrist, or threatened with espionage for trying to force the issue...inside American borders...to their superiors.

    Note the buzzword: "National Security." and "Everybody Spies." One simply does not use the Ring of Gyges for "National Security" issues.

    With that, I give you an NYTimes piece to read.

  4. #114
    Senior Member tkae.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Lost in this discussion that seems to be parroted often: Others have tried. Some of them either have gotten slapped in the wrist, or threatened with espionage for trying to force the issue...inside American borders...to their superiors.

    Note the buzzword: "National Security." and "Everybody Spies." One simply does not use the Ring of Gyges for "National Security" issues.

    With that, I give you an NYTimes piece to read.
    It technically is treason, and they should be arrested for it. Standing up to the system means you're submitting to what the system will do to you. Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela were put in jail, The Dalai Lama was exiled, Jesus was crucified. The list goes on. Standing up for what's right is fine, but you have to face the consequences for your actions.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    And you'd rather the Ring of Gyges be used for anything other than public service? Spying on foreign leaders isn't using it for suppression of political dissent, it isn't violating the rights of the nation's citizens, or anything else of the sort. International espionage happens. Germany has spies in the U.S. China does too. So does Russia. And the U.K. And France, and India, and every other sovereign entity. It's a fact of the modern world, it has been for the past few centuries.

    Germany isn't mad that we spied on them, they're mad that we infiltrated as deep as we did without even being on the radar. They've got egg on their face, so they're playing the victim card.

    He had absolutely no reason to release those facts, and all it's done is compromised our ability to continue collecting intelligence on Eurozone activities (which with the debt crisis is fairly important).
    "Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away." -Ekaku Hakuin
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  5. #115
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    It technically is treason, and they should be arrested for it. Standing up to the system means you're submitting to what the system will do to you. Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela were put in jail, The Dalai Lama was exiled, Jesus was crucified. The list goes on. Standing up for what's right is fine, but you have to face the consequences for your actions.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    And you'd rather the Ring of Gyges be used for anything other than public service? Spying on foreign leaders isn't using it for suppression of political dissent, it isn't violating the rights of the nation's citizens, or anything else of the sort. International espionage happens. Germany has spies in the U.S. China does too. So does Russia. And the U.K. And France, and India, and every other sovereign entity. It's a fact of the modern world, it has been for the past few centuries.

    Germany isn't mad that we spied on them, they're mad that we infiltrated as deep as we did without even being on the radar. They've got egg on their face, so they're playing the victim card.

    He had absolutely no reason to release those facts, and all it's done is compromised our ability to continue collecting intelligence on Eurozone activities (which with the debt crisis is fairly important).
    Hmmmmm, so what kind of national security has been hurt thus far that can be explained by these programs. If it is as common as you put it, all nation spy on other nations, what sort of national security has been hurt by the information given? What sort of information that we do not know that Edward J. Snowden has given us that we do not "already" know except that the capabilities are far more reaching than previously thought. If that is so, isn't the main issue here the domestic surveillance, and not the international one (for foreign nationals forgive me, how I have put it, you aren't as important.)

    What if MLK or Jesus were to live another day to espouse their views? What if they were to live another day to spread civil rights or Christianity?

    In all honesty, he has already faced the consequences of his actions, and it is to forever be exiled from America by this current and future presidents. There is not one place he can truly call home without being intensely monitored. All that effort, to bring the crux of the issue, to the forefront of Americans. He is of another mouthpiece, as you use MLK, to fight the ongoings at home.

  6. #116
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    Germany isn't mad that we spied on them, they're mad that we infiltrated as deep as we did without even being on the radar.
    Not at all.

    "You don't do that to your closest allies" would be a better answer.

    IMHO, Snowden is a hero, because he had the courage to stand true to his principles, even it meant destroying his life.
    In the same position, I would have done the same. This is probably why the Mossad never approached me, even if I have obvious sympathies for Israel.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  7. #117
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I think Snowden has brought attention to important issues that have been ignored by both parties, and I think it was about time someone did that.

    And by your logic, the Dali Lama is a coward for fleeing Tibet.

    I also believe that (and this is purely hypothetical and cannot be proven) if Snowden had done his thing 8 years ago, you would consider him a hero, too.
    Her reasons for hating Snowden aren't political, at all. They're personal. She hates Snowden because he had a girlfriend who was a stripper and he didn't force her to stop stripping. She has projected all sorts of things onto him based upon shitty experiences in her own life.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #118
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    It technically is treason, and they should be arrested for it. Standing up to the system means you're submitting to what the system will do to you. Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela were put in jail, The Dalai Lama was exiled, Jesus was crucified. The list goes on. Standing up for what's right is fine, but you have to face the consequences for your actions.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    And you'd rather the Ring of Gyges be used for anything other than public service? Spying on foreign leaders isn't using it for suppression of political dissent, it isn't violating the rights of the nation's citizens, or anything else of the sort. International espionage happens. Germany has spies in the U.S. China does too. So does Russia. And the U.K. And France, and India, and every other sovereign entity. It's a fact of the modern world, it has been for the past few centuries.

    Germany isn't mad that we spied on them, they're mad that we infiltrated as deep as we did without even being on the radar. They've got egg on their face, so they're playing the victim card.

    He had absolutely no reason to release those facts, and all it's done is compromised our ability to continue collecting intelligence on Eurozone activities (which with the debt crisis is fairly important).
    No, it's not "technically treason".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #119
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkae. View Post
    I have no sympathy for him.

    I agree some of the things should have been disclosed, yes. But he was a coward and didn't stay to face the consequences, and a lot of what he's disclosed truly has been damaging to national secrets. Particularly the issues of international spying.

    Rule #1 of Spying: Everybody Spies.

    It's not news, and making public our capabilities is just disgusting. He isn't a hero, he's a coward who hurt our national security and is living it up by running to two of our biggest diplomatic enemies.
    How exactly did he hurt our national security? Did Al Qaeda think we weren't trying to spy on them before Snowden? Who, other than government officials who were abusing their power, has been hurt by the information revealed by Snowden? Do you believe all the bullshit the government tells you?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #120
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    In all honesty, he has already faced the consequences of his actions, and it is to forever be exiled from America by this current and future presidents. There is not one place he can truly call home without being intensely monitored. All that effort, to bring the crux of the issue, to the forefront of Americans. He is of another mouthpiece, as you use MLK, to fight the ongoings at home.
    You don't abandon your career, your home, to some extent your friends and associates, just to expose information if you are a coward. A coward rationalizes it all away and continues to enjoy his comfortable lifestyle.

    Every defector that came over from the Soviet Union committed treason to his country. We welcomed them with open arms. The difference between heroism and treason might be simply which side of the border you stand on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    1) the staggering stupidity of Snowden choosing Russia, that is unless he is just a traitor and a spy, but I don't think he's spy, but there is no other explanation for his fucking idiocy,for the reasons Mole said
    Russia is far from ideal, but when Snowden went there, he didn't seem to have many options. Perhaps he will become their Marko Ramius, sharing what he knows about our system in exchange for a quiet life.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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