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View Poll Results: Should Snowden be freed?

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  • Yes

    34 80.95%
  • No

    8 19.05%
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  1. #81
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Betraying one's country is not a public service, rather it looks like a matter of individual conscience.

    But for the future, sadly Edward will discover no one likes a traitor, not even those who grant him asylum.
    He didn't betray his country. He did, however, embarrass some powerful people, and that's far more dangerous.

    Most Americans don't believe Snowden is a traitor, by a margin of 55 to 34 percent.

    http://www.newsmax.com/US/quinnipiac...7/10/id/514283
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #82
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    You dimwits seem unable to approach the issues here. From a technological standpoint, the kind of surveillance the NSA is now capable of, does practice, and will continue to institutionalise, is sufficiently different in scope and scale from traditional "surveillance" that it alters the conditions under which we live. People who want to be free call it a connected world. But that was when the concerns were merely mercantile. From a legal standpoint, this kind of surveillance is as old as the hills, and is mandated during wartime. Are we at war?

    Meanwhile, there remain substantial gaps in what we know. PRISM seems moderately well understood, but what's Fairview, for instance. And why are you standing at the side of the road with your mouth hanging open as governments take over the internet? You're so well versed in communications that you know "internet" is really just a kitten meme hangout? The internet isn't that important? You'd still have your neighbourhood if the internet became too like television?

    You were supposed to do something with the information. Hundreds of thousands of NSA employees and managers are NOT telling you what goes on, so you focus on one who does and he's the crazy one?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  3. #83
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    The single most important feature of these programs is you don't know what they are. In what sense does this make you a responsible citizen?

    And for people who live outside the sovereignty of the United States, you appear to be taking control of more than is yours. Is it not our responsibility to push back?

    And when you are engaged in discussion on these issues, you feign confusion and lie. Shall we wait for you to give back what is ours?


    You stupid, stupid Americans. You radicalise normal people.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #84
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I'm moderately certain "owning the internet" is the new iteration of American Brute Force. You've wearied of actual brute force, what with ten years of war, and you're pulling back, spending less on the military, withdrawing troops, generally shutting up physical shop--to replace war-fighting with "intelligence gathering". Only it has to be big. Huge, even. Big enough for team USA. The old anti-terror rhetoric will suit for the purpose of grabbing up Snowden, but the real value of these surveillance programs is what they do for you in the future. That's why the hysteria.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #85
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's good to know that you value government secrecy more than a well-informed public.
    Are you saying the public should know all of what the NSA is doing? I don't think we should. Intelligence activity is classified for a reason.

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  6. #86
    reflecting pool Typh0n's Avatar
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    I find it ironic the US government considers Snowden's actions to be an invasion of privacy when he simply revealed that the US was invading everyone else's privacy.

  7. #87
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Are you saying the public should know all of what the NSA is doing? I don't think we should. Intelligence activity is classified for a reason.
    We don't need to know everything (like the identity of spies, locations and plans of troops, etc), but we need to know a lot more than they willingly tell us. My belief is that a well-informed public is fundamental to a free society, that it should have a higher priority than "security" in all situations except a war on our soil. And I'm not talking about bullshit wars like the War on Terror and War on Drugs. I'm talking about the military force of another nation actually invading the US.

    The problem with the government making things secret is that it's too easy. Far too many things are kept secret than should be, and this allows people in government to keep their own wrongdoings secret. Not only that, exposing their wrongdoing is now illegal. That's a TERRIBLE position for this country to be in.

    If anyone is guilty of a crime, it is Alexander and Clapper. They lied before Congress. They should be imprisoned for perjury, if not worse. But they're allowed to hide behind "national security interest", which can be used to justify almost anything.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #88
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We don't need to know everything (like the identity of spies, locations and plans of troops, etc), but we need to know a lot more than they willingly tell us. My belief is that a well-informed public is fundamental to a free society, that it should have a higher priority than "security" in all situations except a war on our soil. And I'm not talking about bullshit wars like the War on Terror and War on Drugs. I'm talking about the military force of another nation actually invading the US.

    The problem with the government making things secret is that it's too easy. Far too many things are kept secret than should be, and this allows people in government to keep their own wrongdoings secret. Not only that, exposing their wrongdoing is now illegal. That's a TERRIBLE position for this country to be in.
    Looking at what he revealed - what is it that surprised you?

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  9. #89
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Looking at what he revealed - what is it that surprised you?
    Oh, so now you're switching to the "we already knew the government was doing this" defense. If that were true, then NO ONE would be paying attention to him. We didn't know everything he revealed. Some people might have suspected (and those people were dismissed as conspiracy theorists), but we didn't know. What he revealed actually proved Alexander and Clapper to be liars. And that's his real "crime", proving that someone powerful lied.

    If all this is so inconsequential and unsurprising, why did the US government go so far as to have the flight of the president of Bolivia denied access to French and Portuguese airports? That's very close to an act of war over something that "shouldn't have surprised the American people" according to government apologists like you.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #90
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Good thing highlander is not in a position of power with access to loads of supposedly private information... Oh, shit!

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