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View Poll Results: Should Snowden be freed?

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  • Yes

    34 80.95%
  • No

    8 19.05%
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  1. #21
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Civil Disobedience and Moral Duty

    In a liberal democracy we have a moral duty to follow the law. However if the law is seriously against our conscience, we can commit an act of Civil Disobedience.

    But after committing an act of Civil Disobedience, we have an equal moral duty to turn ourselves into the Police.

    It's plain Edward Snowden had a moral duty to break the law because it was seriously against his conscience.

    But he failed his moral duty to turn himself into the Police.

  2. #22
    Epiphany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    In a liberal democracy we have a moral duty to follow the law. However if the law is seriously against our conscience, we can commit an act of Civil Disobedience.

    But after committing an act of Civil Disobedience, we have an equal moral duty to turn ourselves into the Police.

    It's plain Edward Snowden had a moral duty to break the law because it was seriously against his conscience.

    But he failed his moral duty to turn himself into the Police.
    Why is it his moral duty to turn himself in to a government who he believes transgressed against its own citizens and violated their constitution? He knows he will be tried as a criminal according to the authorities' own interests, which are primarily self-serving. What terrorist attacks has PRISM prevented? It didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing. I think it's just another example of the US government using the threat of "terror" to increase its own power.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    Why is it his moral duty to turn himself in to a government who he believes transgressed against its own citizens and violated their constitution? He knows he will be tried as a criminal according to the authorities' own interests, which are primarily self-serving. What terrorist attacks has PRISM prevented? It didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombing. I think it's just another example of the US government using the threat of "terror" to increase its own power.
    Liberal democracy is a moral contract. We contract to make the laws and follow them. But if they seriously violate our conscience we can commit an act of Civil Disobedience. But in order to preserve the moral contract of liberal democracy, we need to observe the laws, particularly when we break them as a matter of conscience.

    So if we break the law as a serious matter of conscience, then fail to uphold our liberal democratic law by handing ourself into the Police and the Courts, then we are a common criminal.

  4. #24
    Epiphany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Liberal democracy is a moral contract. We contract to make the laws and follow them. But if they seriously violate our conscience we can commit an act of Civil Disobedience. But in order to preserve the moral contract of liberal democracy, we need to observe the laws, particularly when we break them as a matter of conscience.

    So if we break the law, even as a serious matter of conscience, then fail to uphold our liberal democratic law by handing ourself into the Police, then we are a common criminal.
    But if the government breaks the law established by the people (the constitution) then who is there to take them into custody? Wouldn't the US government equally have the moral responsibility of turning itself in to be judged for its criminal offences? The government deliberately intended to keep citizens ignorant of its actions, precisely because it violated their "moral contract." So then why should Snowden turn himself in to a dishonest government that violates its own constitution?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    But if the government breaks the law established by the people (the constitution) then who is there to take them into custody? Wouldn't the US government equally have the moral responsibility of turning itself in to be judged for its criminal offences? The government deliberately intended to keep citizens ignorant of its actions, precisely because it violated their "moral contract." So then why should Snowden turn himself in to a dishonest government that violates its own constitution?
    Simply put: two wrongs don't make a right.

    For instance, if you steal my car, I can't make it right by stealing your car. Under liberal democracy I have a moral duty to report you to the Police who will take you to Court.

    And if for instance, our Government breaks the law of the Constitution, this gives us no right to break the law in return, rather it is our moral duty to take the Government to the Constitutional Court.

    Liberal democracy is characterised by the limitation of power. We achieve this by the separation of powers. So if one arm of Government breaks the law, we can go to another independent arm of Government for redress. We do this all the time.

  6. #26
    Epiphany
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Simply put: two wrongs don't make a right.

    For instance, if you steal my car, I can't make it right by stealing your car. Under liberal democracy I have a moral duty to report you to the Police who will take you to Court.

    And if for instance, our Government breaks the law of the Constitution, this gives us no right to break the law in return, rather it is our moral duty to take the Government to the Constitutional Court.

    Liberal democracy is characterised by the limitation of power. We achieve this by the separation of powers. So if one arm of Government breaks the law, we can go to another independent arm of Government for redress. We do this all the time.
    Ideally, yes, but this isn't always the case. Oftentimes, violations of the constitution are simply dismissed "for our own good," as if the governing body is the moral authority and not the people at large. The idea of a moral authority is false anyway. If Snowden makes his decisions based on his own conscience, he's not morally obligated to submit to a particular institution's code, especially when that institution violates its own.

  7. #27
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Does this duty to turn yourself in also apply when the government whose laws you have broken to unveil that very same government's unjust practices also potentially foresees the death penalty (an unjust, cruel and disproportionate penalty and a barbaric practice in itself) for those who reveil such unjust practices?
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  8. #28
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Also, this is pretty scandalous:

    http://m.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/j...a-plane-vienna

    In summary: America spits Europe in the face, Snowden makes it public, Europe tries to help America to catch and punish him for stating the obvious (namely that we are fucking vassals of the USA) by temporarily kidnapping the head of state of a sovereign nation on pure suspicion.

    This is embarassing.
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  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Does this duty to turn yourself in also apply when the government whose laws you have broken to unveil that very same government's unjust practices also potentially foresees the death penalty (an unjust, cruel and disproportionate penalty and a barbaric practice in itself) for those who reveil such unjust practices?
    Ah, you still want to argue with me.

    Open, public, imaginary conversations with Watson and Holmes are out of the question - who knows: they may reveal too much.

    How sad. How odd. How perplexing. I can't breathe.

    What do Watson and Holmes say?

  10. #30
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    Seems most people want him to either spend the rest of his life in jail or remain free.

    Maybe a 5-10 years sentence would be a balanced option.
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


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