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View Poll Results: Should Snowden be freed?

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  • Yes

    34 80.95%
  • No

    8 19.05%
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  1. #121
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I know where you're coming from and why you posted that but I'm a socialist, and not even one of the "libertarian" variety, and I dont think that the sort of unquestioning trust in what's proven to be a corrupt government is anything to do with socialism.
    A fair point. I was hoping they'd be able to come out and say why it's not socialism. Because it's not. But what is it, this slap-happy American desire to say it's all okay. Do they all have Stockholm Syndrome? Maybe they've been at war too long and they think this is normal.

    It will be normal. But it's not yet. Only the men with the powers have decided it's okay for them to have the powers. When everyone else gets on board with something a bit more robust than dumbass optimism, then it'll be--well, if not okay, then at least honestly normal.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #122
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    But in a digital and disposable age, there is now a greater amount of accountability on the individual as well.

    How this will develop should be interesting in the years to come. Socially at least I suspect it will become more common place that most citizens will verse themselves in online privacy.
    I doubt that will happen, before it is too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    The only time I come close to a socialist are civic issues like healthcare, education, food, water, and etc that actually betters the population. Which, if I may add, ~70% of Americans live on a check by check basis.

    When it comes to these issues, I am as civil libertarian as they come by these days.

    Give them an inch and they take a mile.
    My perspective is quite similar. I value individual liberty above most things, but freedom is meaningless in any practical sense if you have to spend all your efforts just trying to survive.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'm a lot more worried about how well the information stored on us is protected, how effective the monitoring is to detect someone stealing that information and how effective government and the private sector are in collaborating with each other for us to protect ourselves. In addition to the terrorism angle and protecting personal information, I'm concerned about the ongoing economic viability of the US economy (i.e., jobs) if we can't manage a way to protect our intellectual property.
    Yes, theft of information is a concern. If we lack understanding and control over how "authorized" institutions like government or corporations use our information, we have even less insight into these unauthorized uses. Of course, the difference between authorized use and theft can change overnight with the passage of a new law, and to some degree is in the eye of the beholder.

    I am more concerned about the government and private sector collaborating to do even more data mining on private citizens. If we are going to safeguard more "impersonal" information like intellectual property, the government would do well to have ordinary law-abiding citizens on their side, as with any crime-fighting strategy. This doesn't happen when people feel like the government is the problem, or even the enemy. People will be more willing to share information when there are clear limits on what the government can ask for, and reasonable confidence that they will be obeyed.

    Private sector use of personal information is another huge concern, collected in this case for marketing and profit rather than security considerations (but vulnerable to seizure by the government through the kind of collaboration mentioned above). No, I don't want anyone keeping tabs on what shoe size I wear, or what kind of cereal I eat, where I go to lunch or what I've been checking out from the library. The question is not whether I have anything to hide, it's who owns that information to begin with. This gets to the fundamental philosophical question underlying much of the privacy debate. Some people consider details like that the property of the individual they describe. An outside entity therefore needs that person's consent to collect or use that information in any way. Others seem to think that these personal details are like a dollar on the sidewalk: finder's keepers. If it fell from your pocket, you must persuade the finder to return it to you, if you can. Obviously, we can all guard our wallets better, but a world in which the first assumption operates will look much different than one based on the second.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #123
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I asked what it is that he revealed that surprised you and you didn't answer my question. I'm prepared to attempt to explain the likely value of the intelligence techniques.
    The question is irrelevant. You could ask me what color shirt I'm wearing and it would be equally relevant.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #124
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    A fair point. I was hoping they'd be able to come out and say why it's not socialism. Because it's not. But what is it, this slap-happy American desire to say it's all okay. Do they all have Stockholm Syndrome? Maybe they've been at war too long and they think this is normal.

    It will be normal. But it's not yet. Only the men with the powers have decided it's okay for them to have the powers. When everyone else gets on board with something a bit more robust than dumbass optimism, then it'll be--well, if not okay, then at least honestly normal.
    I think it can just be summed up in the idea that "its not fascism when we do it" to be honest because there's real cognitive dissonance, its the same as the consistent resistance to state power and foreign wars that there's been from the US right since they have had Obama to concentrate their mind but complete abscence of a care about it when it was Bush in office.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yep. I really don't get it. That's why I say "narcissism" because what kind of self-centered delusion do you have to have to think you matter enough for the gov't to come and swoop you up over your AIM conversations with your Aunt Betty, Facebook posts to high school and/or college friends, and miscellaneous posts on hobby forums like this one.

    If you aren't doing anything wrong, then why are you so preoccupied. Will the government find out I wear size 7 shoes? Onoes.
    Very few people believe the NSA is going to target them.

    Here's my view: The link between drugs and terrorism has already been made in the past. In the future, I believe the DEA is going to get access to this information and it will be used against drug dealers and users. Once the DEA has access, then state and local police will want (and eventually get) access because they're also involved in drug enforcement. The more people who have access to this information, the more likely it is that it will be abused. Have you ever spoken to someone online who smokes pot? Surely you have. Well, that could eventually to a chain of events where a SWAT team is trashing your house looking for evidence of drugs. And what about women who are married to cops and want a divorce? If their cop husbands have access to this information, they'll certainly use that against them in divorce proceedings. The potential for abuse is IMMENSE.

    It's not worth it, especially when you consider the fact that this multi-billion dollar program has not lead to the thwarting of a single terrorist plot. The government has claimed otherwise, but the examples given by Alexander and Clapper have been proven to be false upon closer inspection (looking at the court documents).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #126
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    What are the consequences of Snowden being free?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #127
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    What are the consequences of Snowden being free?
    America's homies will call her a pussy, and Julian Assange will feel a tiny bit less alone in the world.

  8. #128
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Have you ever spoken to someone online who smokes pot? Surely you have. Well, that could eventually to a chain of events where a SWAT team is trashing your house looking for evidence of drugs. And what about women who are married to cops and want a divorce? If their cop husbands have access to this information, they'll certainly use that against them in divorce proceedings. The potential for abuse is IMMENSE.
    See Safe Haven for a fictional, if dramatically mediocre, example of this kind of abuse of authority. In this case, the police officer husband has to resort to breaking and entering, since he cannot get a warrant for the info he wants, but he uses modern technology in other ways to go after his wife.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #129
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The question is irrelevant. You could ask me what color shirt I'm wearing and it would be equally relevant.
    Of course it's relevant. You're upset about what the NSA is doing. What is it that they're doing exactly that you're upset about? No answer = no specifics = hot air.

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  10. #130
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am more concerned about the government and private sector collaborating to do even more data mining on private citizens. If we are going to safeguard more "impersonal" information like intellectual property, the government would do well to have ordinary law-abiding citizens on their side, as with any crime-fighting strategy. This doesn't happen when people feel like the government is the problem, or even the enemy. People will be more willing to share information when there are clear limits on what the government can ask for, and reasonable confidence that they will be obeyed.

    Private sector use of personal information is another huge concern, collected in this case for marketing and profit rather than security considerations (but vulnerable to seizure by the government through the kind of collaboration mentioned above). No, I don't want anyone keeping tabs on what shoe size I wear, or what kind of cereal I eat, where I go to lunch or what I've been checking out from the library. The question is not whether I have anything to hide, it's who owns that information to begin with. This gets to the fundamental philosophical question underlying much of the privacy debate. Some people consider details like that the property of the individual they describe. An outside entity therefore needs that person's consent to collect or use that information in any way. Others seem to think that these personal details are like a dollar on the sidewalk: finder's keepers. If it fell from your pocket, you must persuade the finder to return it to you, if you can. Obviously, we can all guard our wallets better, but a world in which the first assumption operates will look much different than one based on the second.
    I guess I can summarize my thoughts this way. I'm more worried about individuals and groups that I KNOW are collecting information with an intention or obvious side effect of harming me, my company or my country. I'm less concerned about the government snooping on me because I'm not doing anything wrong. I like the idea of the analyzing network traffic and identifying hostile destinations within my country or in other countries and looking at communication between individuals in those hostile destinations and investigating for potential terrorism. I'll take the risk from a civil liberty standpoint. I already know companies collect tons of information on my browsing and buying habits in an attempt to sell me something. That's not new. It's an annoyance but not a threat to my physical well being. I am concerned about another country - let's say China stealing proprietary technology designs or other similar information, allowing them to come out with cheap products very quickly (since they don't have to pay for the R&D or development), thereby putting people in my country out of work and affecting the economy.

    Not to be insensitive to your point - I am concerned with governments abusing information against law abiding citizens as Hoover did when he led the CIA. The only way I can think of to balance that is by refining the laws in place and enforcing that. However, there are isn't much in the way of laws to protect other countries interests from a privacy standpoint. Country laws are pretty much directed at themselves individually (with the exception of the EU directive, which is really just a baseline for the counties in to use - they still have the individual laws that vary substantially).

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