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View Poll Results: Should Snowden be freed?

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  • Yes

    34 80.95%
  • No

    8 19.05%
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  1. #111
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    What a remarkable collection of socialists you guys turned out to be. The government works better if they know more rather than less? And what they can know is bigger than it used to be? How did you manage to grant the government that kind of authority? Compared to your past history, this authority is new.

    You miserable communists. No wonder you think all this is okay for the rest of the world too.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  2. #112
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yep. I really don't get it. That's why I say "narcissism" because what kind of self-centered delusion do you have to have to think you matter enough for the gov't to come and swoop you up over your AIM conversations with your Aunt Betty, Facebook posts to high school and/or college friends, and miscellaneous posts on hobby forums like this one.

    If you aren't doing anything wrong, then why are you so preoccupied. Will the government find out I wear size 7 shoes? Onoes.
    If you aren't doing anything wrong, can I have every information about your life? You haven't done anything wrong yet, so I suppose you wouldn't need to hide anything about you.

    Soooo, while people are willing to propagate that phrase, let me ask you, why would you need a secret court if you aren't doing anything wrong? "Because some things need to remain secret" just won't do it. Why are you collecting millions of information on Americans when you have nothing to hide?

    It goes both ways, really. Hyperbole at its best. Do we really need to be better than the Stasi? (Godwin, yay. EDIT: Or getting there.)
    Last edited by Rail Tracer; 07-16-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  3. #113
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    What a remarkable collection of socialists you guys turned out to be. The government works better if they know more rather than less? And what they can know is bigger than it used to be? How did you manage to grant the government that kind of authority? Compared to your past history, this authority is new.

    You miserable communists. No wonder you think all this is okay for the rest of the world too.
    The only time I come close to a socialist are civic issues like healthcare, education, food, water, and etc that actually betters the population. Which, if I may add, ~70% of Americans live on a check by check basis.

    When it comes to these issues, I am as civil libertarian as they come by these days.

    Give them an inch and they take a mile.

  4. #114
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Somehow I missed this. Yes, I completely agree with everything you are saying.

    I'm a lot more worried about how well the information stored on us is protected, how effective the monitoring is to detect someone stealing that information and how effective government and the private sector are in collaborating with each other for us to protect ourselves. In addition to the terrorism angle and protecting personal information, I'm concerned about the ongoing economic viability of the US economy (i.e., jobs) if we can't manage a way to protect our intellectual property.
    I get what you are saying. Right now I'm quite certain Google knows far more about me than I should be comfortable with, so the government spying on people should not be that different.

    I think someone has pointed out that what people really have against PRISM is the potential of its power. It's like having a nuclear weapon and saying "Of course, we'll never use it against you!" It still makes people uneasy because it is a nuclear weapon after all. Endorsing government spying can become the starting point of something much scarier and oppressive, and with the government being so closely tied to corporations, it may not always be working for the good of its citizens.

    Let me clarify again that I'm not a US citizen and I'm quite on the fence about the whole thing. I believe the program has good intentions of preventing terrorism, but to be a bit cliched, that kind of power can fall into the wrong hands. People seem to think that democratic governments are an established infallible institution, that it is too big to fail, but in reality things might be more fragile than we realize.

    As for Snowden, if he did what he believed was right then I have nothing against him. To be a true hero though, he will need to give himself up and be willing to rot in prison and die for his cause, but that is perhaps asking too much of a human being.
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  5. #115
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    The only time I come close to a socialist are civic issues like healthcare, education, food, water, and etc that actually betters the population. Which, if I may add, ~70% of Americans live on a check by check basis.

    When it comes to these issues, I am as civil libertarian as they come by these days.

    Give them an inch and they take a mile.
    I know. This blanket "you guys" I use is for the bad people who disagree with me. I'd like to read their emails.

    But it's bizarre how sanguine people are about these powers. It's like, "oh well, we didn't know about that, and there's nothing we can do now, let's be cheerful." But packaged as "if you did nothing wrong..." or "that couldn't happen here..." It's a significant cop out. Because, since when can government have this kind of power? The answer I suppose is, since war. But the war is over now. And the peace dividend turned out to be a vasty sea of surveillance technology. Hooray!

    I get the impression people don't know what these technologies are. And not just because no one, except Snowden, has said what they are. But because no one's decided yet. For Keith Alexander they're surveillance and defense. And that's what they really are?

    And if you don't know what he's told us about, then how do you say what happens now to that nice young man, Ed Snowden? How about we trust the nice government to know what's best for us, eh? That's a good idea, isn't it. Because otherwise the terrorists will kill us.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I get what you are saying. Right now I'm quite certain Google knows far more about me than I should be comfortable with, so the government spying on people should not be that different.

    I think someone has pointed out that what people really have against PRISM is the potential of its power. It's like having a nuclear weapon and saying "Of course, we'll never use it against you!" It still makes people uneasy because it is a nuclear weapon after all. Endorsing government spying can become the starting point of something much scarier and oppressive, and with the government being so closely tied to corporations, it may not always be working for the good of its citizens.

    Let me clarify again that I'm not a US citizen and I'm quite on the fence about the whole thing. I believe the program has good intentions of preventing terrorism, but to be a bit cliched, that kind of power can fall into the wrong hands. People seem to think that democratic governments are an established infallible institution, that it is too big to fail, but in reality things might be more fragile than we realize.
    Well said.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    As for Snowden, if he did what he believed was right then I have nothing against him. To be a true hero though, he will need to give himself up and be willing to rot in prison and die for his cause, but that is perhaps asking too much of a human being.
    But I disagree with this. Turning himself in doesn't make any sense from a logical or moral standpoint. He did what he felt needed to be done. Why is he obligated to turn himself into a government who will punish him for doing what he believed was the right thing?

  7. #117
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    But I disagree with this. Turning himself in doesn't make any sense from a logical or moral standpoint. He did what he felt needed to be done. Why is he obligated to turn himself into a government who will punish him for doing what he believed was the right thing?
    So he can be a martyr!

    /INFJ martyr complex


    Sorry, I was trying to be sarcastic.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    So he can be a martyr!

    /INFJ martyr complex


    Sorry, I was trying to be sarcastic.
    Ahh...I see.

    Well, someone else in the thread made the same argument in a completely non-sarcastic way so I wasn't sure.

    And that's my sole contribution to the forum for today. Off to bed.

  9. #119
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    What a remarkable collection of socialists you guys turned out to be. The government works better if they know more rather than less? And what they can know is bigger than it used to be? How did you manage to grant the government that kind of authority? Compared to your past history, this authority is new.

    You miserable communists. No wonder you think all this is okay for the rest of the world too.
    I know where you're coming from and why you posted that but I'm a socialist, and not even one of the "libertarian" variety, and I dont think that the sort of unquestioning trust in what's proven to be a corrupt government is anything to do with socialism.

  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You're right, the laws and regulations have not kept up with technology. That's been going on for a long time and it's only worse now. There is also the challenge of cooperation across countries, which can be extremely problematic. I think there is a difference between traditional law enforcement for US citizens and what's being done for national security reasons. When we enacted the Patriot Act, it opened up additional things that the government was authorized to do. It's all a challenging area to balance to be sure but the government does need methods to protect the US and not just from terrorism but to guard our economic assets as well. Take a look at that PDF and you'll see what I mean.
    Laws and regulations, outdated and self-serving since before they were institutionalized, have not kept up with the evolution of the human race. Damn near every rule I see is a bastardization of some principle, twisted to become self-serving, oppressing, and absolutely worthless. I spit on the shit that did this.

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