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View Poll Results: Should Snowden be freed?

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  • Yes

    34 80.95%
  • No

    8 19.05%
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  1. #101
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I agree with what you are saying. The difference in today's world is that there are no boundaries and walls. The worst psychopaths in the world are your next door neighbor. Also, in the same way we have had an explosion of methods to facilitate cheap communication between each other (Internet, Voice over IP, Smart Phones, etc.), the bad guys can use these same methods to communicate with each other. As we are able to create this little forum with a group of people interested in obscure topics such as cognitive functions, others are able to easily, cheaply and securely establish such communities for much more nefarious purposes as well and the ability to tear them down and move them quickly and easily to avoid detection. They also have the most sophisticated means available of both protecting themselves as well as methods for attacking others electronically. The world has changed. The country has been intercepting and decoding communications since at least the 1940s. Underwater telecommunications cables were tapped by submarines in the 1950s. We had spies. Methods are changing/different now - or at least being supplemented.
    I will check out the link at home later.

    We have always had the occasional psychopath next door. Moreover, communication has always been a double-edged sword, available to criminals and law enforcement alike. The problem is that regulation has not kept up with technology. For years we have had strict laws about phone wiretapping and opening mail, to protect ordinary people from the abuse of law enforcement authority. When criminals still relied on these methods to communicate, police were still able to track and prosecute them despite the restrictions. Now we have email, social media, and cellphones. Average folks need to be able to rely on comparable protections, and law enforcement authorities need to learn to work within them.

    That being said, people make much more public now than they used to. Posting your life story, or even the account of your day, on Facebook is the equivalent of putting that letter to your sister on the bulletin board at the local diner, or worse. If you wouldn't have done that, then get off Facebook. Everyone who complains about government (or corporate) snooping and data collection should look first at what they themselves willingly give out. If you mimize exposure, however, just providing contact and payment info when shopping online, communicating with friends via individual emails, etc. you should not have to worry that these interactions are subject to tracking and eavesdropping unless you become a legitimate target of investigation, just like in the old days.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #102
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I will check out the link at home later.

    We have always had the occasional psychopath next door. Moreover, communication has always been a double-edged sword, available to criminals and law enforcement alike. The problem is that regulation has not kept up with technology. For years we have had strict laws about phone wiretapping and opening mail, to protect ordinary people from the abuse of law enforcement authority. When criminals still relied on these methods to communicate, police were still able to track and prosecute them despite the restrictions. Now we have email, social media, and cellphones. Average folks need to be able to rely on comparable protections, and law enforcement authorities need to learn to work within them.

    That being said, people make much more public now than they used to. Posting your life story, or even the account of your day, on Facebook is the equivalent of putting that letter to your sister on the bulletin board at the local diner, or worse. If you wouldn't have done that, then get off Facebook. Everyone who complains about government (or corporate) snooping and data collection should look first at what they themselves willingly give out. If you mimize exposure, however, just providing contact and payment info when shopping online, communicating with friends via individual emails, etc. you should not have to worry that these interactions are subject to tracking and eavesdropping unless you become a legitimate target of investigation, just like in the old days.
    You're right, the laws and regulations have not kept up with technology. That's been going on for a long time and it's only worse now. There is also the challenge of cooperation across countries, which can be extremely problematic. I think there is a difference between traditional law enforcement for US citizens and what's being done for national security reasons. When we enacted the Patriot Act, it opened up additional things that the government was authorized to do. It's all a challenging area to balance to be sure but the government does need methods to protect the US and not just from terrorism but to guard our economic assets as well. Take a look at that PDF and you'll see what I mean.

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  3. #103

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    Hell to tha yeah!

    You hear me NSA?! Send your agents, see if I care!! Down with the American Empire! Down with the neocon plans for a new American century, you guys cant compete

  4. #104
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Information has always been our craving and with that information more understanding and clarity on the questions we seek answers to.

    However our flaws and paranoia turn information from a useful tool in our journey towards truth into a knife at the throat of those who we do not trust. But there is also a difficulty in presenting this as a one sided perspective.

    In our biological history it has always served us well to mind the potential threats that surround us, but it is better we do so within a reasonable amount of suspicion, rather than just blind assumption.

    So Snowden is, as others have pointed out, both a hero and a villain. Of course perspectively we knew that anyhow, but these recent debacle's on information leaking and who really trusts who is a dangerous example of how the fearful consciousness of a few in power can drive disruption among the balance between reasonable suspicion and personal privacy.
    Until we live in some utopia of minds where we can trust one another intelligently, there will always be tabs held on one another.

    But in a digital and disposable age, there is now a greater amount of accountability on the individual as well.

    How this will develop should be interesting in the years to come. Socially at least I suspect it will become more common place that most citizens will verse themselves in online privacy.

    The question to ask is: How do we do things differently?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
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  5. #105
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    With Keith Alexander's NSA, I think the question is not do terrorists have freedom of association, nor is it should citizens be more responsible with what they share online. Those frankly are non-questions. For Keithy, the question, I think, is does America have the technological capability to meet the next century. The requisite capability used to be military. Now it's something else. Or it will be.

    You know how the US were going to deal with Chinese hackers? They were going to hand information over to the Chinese government, detailing what they know about the hackers and how they're controlled. The information would have been compelling enough that the Chinese government could no longer play dumb. After that, the US were going to try one of the hackers, in absentia, most likely, and for espionage. Both the the government-to-government revelations and the trial would have put on display some of the present US surveillance capability. Apparently this plan had been in the works for several years. Snowden put a bit of a crimp in it, but it's still going ahead.

    Source: some report, somewhere, I forget.
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  6. #106
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    HA HAHAHA @ "Putin Hopes Snowden Will Leave Russia Soon."

    Putin is quoted by one Russian news agency as saying, "Such a present to us. Merry Christmas."
    I also love the comment he made about fleecing the pig. Something like "little wool, lots of squealing."

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Americans tend to be idealistic and narcissistic by about 55 to 34 percent, so they identify with an idealistic and narcissistic traitor.


    EXACTLY.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    Snowden is a traitor and deserves the justice I hope he will eventually get. I say that as a US citizen who understand the government might look into my activities (I have nothing to hide nor anything the government might be interested in knowing).

    People must know, but apparently don't understand, that there are 300++ million people in the US. It's mere common sense that alludes to us the impossibility that someone could be invading the privacy of any given citizen on the level of fear that supporters of Snowden are suggesting. No 'fence, but that's just fucking stupid, and as a US citizen that could be "spied" upon, I feel totally comfortable knowing the US "looks into" my activity. Why? Because, as an ex-IP engineer and someone who happens to know people who have access to databases about people that the typical person would find shocking, I also happen to know all that they are doing is logging the data for look-up activity and it would require a country the size of the US to staff an active "invasion of privacy" on each individual the way we're throwing it around here. If you have nothing to hide, the government could collect gigabits and gigabits of information on your activity and never execute a search query into their massive database pertaining you. Who cares? The most sensitive information about you is issued by the government (things like SSI). Getting upset about PRISM is just plain ignorant.

    Sure. It's the "principle" that matters... but let's be honest, who cares. Unless you're an internet-involved criminal and have something to hide... then you should be upset.

    Yep. I really don't get it. That's why I say "narcissism" because what kind of self-centered delusion do you have to have to think you matter enough for the gov't to come and swoop you up over your AIM conversations with your Aunt Betty, Facebook posts to high school and/or college friends, and miscellaneous posts on hobby forums like this one.

    If you aren't doing anything wrong, then why are you so preoccupied. Will the government find out I wear size 7 shoes? Onoes.

  9. #109
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    Snowden is a traitor and deserves the justice I hope he will eventually get. I say that as a US citizen who understand the government might look into my activities (I have nothing to hide nor anything the government might be interested in knowing).

    People must know, but apparently don't understand, that there are 300++ million people in the US. It's mere common sense that alludes to us the impossibility that someone could be invading the privacy of any given citizen on the level of fear that supporters of Snowden are suggesting. No 'fence, but that's just fucking stupid, and as a US citizen that could be "spied" upon, I feel totally comfortable knowing the US "looks into" my activity. Why? Because, as an ex-IP engineer and someone who happens to know people who have access to databases about people that the typical person would find shocking, I also happen to know all that they are doing is logging the data for look-up activity and it would require a country the size of the US to staff an active "invasion of privacy" on each individual the way we're throwing it around here. If you have nothing to hide, the government could collect gigabits and gigabits of information on your activity and never execute a search query into their massive database pertaining you. Who cares? The most sensitive information about you is issued by the government (things like SSI). Getting upset about PRISM is just plain ignorant.

    Sure. It's the "principle" that matters... but let's be honest, who cares. Unless you're an internet-involved criminal and have something to hide... then you should be upset.
    Somehow I missed this. Yes, I completely agree with everything you are saying.

    I'm a lot more worried about how well the information stored on us is protected, how effective the monitoring is to detect someone stealing that information and how effective government and the private sector are in collaborating with each other for us to protect ourselves. In addition to the terrorism angle and protecting personal information, I'm concerned about the ongoing economic viability of the US economy (i.e., jobs) if we can't manage a way to protect our intellectual property.

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  10. #110
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    The question to ask is: How do we do things differently?
    The dam has been breached. We are surrounded by whistleblowers. And there are more and more coming.

    Why is this?

    Print gave us authority, secrecy and control, while random access memory gives us conversation, openness and transparency.

    However authority will not go gently into that good night, and authority will try to hold back the tide of whistleblowers.

    But authority can no more hold back the tide of whistleblowers than King Cnut could hold back the tide of the sea.

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