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View Poll Results: Should Snowden be freed?

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  • Yes

    34 80.95%
  • No

    8 19.05%
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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Good thing highlander is not in a position of power with access to loads of supposedly private information... Oh, shit!
    Everyone knows he reads it but if you actually find and post proof that he's doing it, your ass is going down because that's, like, treason, OMG.

  2. #92
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    But yesterday the word of Snowden might
    Have stood against the agencies; now sits he there in Moscow,
    And none so poor to do him reverence.
    O masters, if I were disposed to stir
    Your hearts and minds to mutiny and rage,
    I should do Marm wrong, and highlander wrong,
    Who, you all know, are honourable folk:
    I will not do them wrong; I rather choose
    To wrong the refugee, to wrong myself and you,
    Than I will wrong such honourable folk.

  3. #93
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    He didn't betray his country. He did, however, embarrass some powerful people, and that's far more dangerous.

    Most Americans don't believe Snowden is a traitor, by a margin of 55 to 34 percent.

    http://www.newsmax.com/US/quinnipiac...7/10/id/514283
    Americans tend to be idealistic and narcissistic by about 55 to 34 percent, so they identify with an idealistic and narcissistic traitor.

  4. #94
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Oh, so now you're switching to the "we already knew the government was doing this" defense. If that were true, then NO ONE would be paying attention to him. We didn't know everything he revealed. Some people might have suspected (and those people were dismissed as conspiracy theorists), but we didn't know. What he revealed actually proved Alexander and Clapper to be liars. And that's his real "crime", proving that someone powerful lied.

    If all this is so inconsequential and unsurprising, why did the US government go so far as to have the flight of the president of Bolivia denied access to French and Portuguese airports? That's very close to an act of war over something that "shouldn't have surprised the American people" according to government apologists like you.
    I asked what it is that he revealed that surprised you and you didn't answer my question. I'm prepared to attempt to explain the likely value of the intelligence techniques.

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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Americans tend to be idealistic and narcissistic by about 55 to 34 percent, so they identify with an idealistic and narcissistic traitor.
    Mole, you are a curious one. With all of your anti-American rhetoric over the years, I am surprised that you are now defending the US government in its effort to expand its surveillance internationally. What consequences might this have for the great Oz? Hasn't the terrible American empire with its vile culture and influence done enough to corrupt the pure and holy soil of Australia? Are you not opposed to the US gaining even more power over the world than it already has?

  6. #96
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Snowden is a traitor and deserves the justice I hope he will eventually get. I say that as a US citizen who understand the government might look into my activities (I have nothing to hide nor anything the government might be interested in knowing).

    People must know, but apparently don't understand, that there are 300++ million people in the US. It's mere common sense that alludes to us the impossibility that someone could be invading the privacy of any given citizen on the level of fear that supporters of Snowden are suggesting. No 'fence, but that's just fucking stupid, and as a US citizen that could be "spied" upon, I feel totally comfortable knowing the US "looks into" my activity. Why? Because, as an ex-IP engineer and someone who happens to know people who have access to databases about people that the typical person would find shocking, I also happen to know all that they are doing is logging the data for look-up activity and it would require a country the size of the US to staff an active "invasion of privacy" on each individual the way we're throwing it around here. If you have nothing to hide, the government could collect gigabits and gigabits of information on your activity and never execute a search query into their massive database pertaining you. Who cares? The most sensitive information about you is issued by the government (things like SSI). Getting upset about PRISM is just plain ignorant.

    Sure. It's the "principle" that matters... but let's be honest, who cares. Unless you're an internet-involved criminal and have something to hide... then you should be upset.

  7. #97
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    If it's innocuous, how is it traitorous to say it exists?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  8. #98
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    Mole, you are a curious one. With all of your anti-American rhetoric over the years, I am surprised that you are now defending the US government in its effort to expand its surveillance internationally. What consequences might this have for the great Oz? Hasn't the terrible American empire with its vile culture and influence done enough to corrupt the pure and holy soil of Australia? Are you not opposed to the US gaining even more power over the world than it already has?
    Most of life is a choice between two evils. And I have no trouble choosing between jihad and the USA.

    Herbert Vere Evatt, QC, KStJ, the Australian jurist, was the President of the United Nations General Assembly (1948-49), and with President Harry S. Truman wrote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Meanwhile 57 Islamic Nations of the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation (OIC) have publicly rejected the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in favour of Sharia, and have passed a resolution in the General Assemby making it an international crime to criticise Islam.

    And standing in the way of this resolution is the Free Speech Amendment to the Constitution of the USA.

  9. #99
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I also happen to know all that they are doing is logging the data for look-up activity and it would require a country the size of the US to staff an active "invasion of privacy" on each individual the way we're throwing it around here. If you have nothing to hide, the government could collect gigabits and gigabits of information on your activity and never execute a search query into their massive database pertaining you. Who cares? The most sensitive information about you is issued by the government (things like SSI). Getting upset about PRISM is just plain ignorant.

    Sure. It's the "principle" that matters... but let's be honest, who cares. Unless you're an internet-involved criminal and have something to hide... then you should be upset.
    The danger is not that the government will actively invade the privacy of every single person. Indeed, that is impractical with available resources. The danger is that, because the information is readily accessible on everyone, when the government does decide to target someone, legitimately or not, they have a wealth of information at their fingertips. Plenty of people think they have nothing to hide until someone else goes after them, using this information as ammunition. Just imagine the McCarthy hearings in the internet age.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Are you saying the public should know all of what the NSA is doing? I don't think we should. Intelligence activity is classified for a reason.
    Sometimes information is classified for bad reasons, e.g. to prevent embarrassment to those in power. This is against regulations, but if the information has already been classified, it is very hard to know much less prove what has happened.

    Secrecy is closely related to trust. The government trusts individuals with security clearances to know certain secrets. More broadly, however, we citizens trust our government to keep secret only what is necessary, and to use that secret information only in the national interest. Since these activities and information are outside the usual public scrutiny, we cannot, in the immortal words of President Reagan, "trust but verify". At times in our history, however, it becomes apparent that the government has betrayed that trust. The rational response is to make necessary corrections, and to require greater accountability until trust can be reestablished.

    Lateralus and Kalach have the right idea:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We don't need to know everything (like the identity of spies, locations and plans of troops, etc), but we need to know a lot more than they willingly tell us. My belief is that a well-informed public is fundamental to a free society, that it should have a higher priority than "security" in all situations except a war on our soil. And I'm not talking about bullshit wars like the War on Terror and War on Drugs. I'm talking about the military force of another nation actually invading the US.

    The problem with the government making things secret is that it's too easy. Far too many things are kept secret than should be, and this allows people in government to keep their own wrongdoings secret. Not only that, exposing their wrongdoing is now illegal. That's a TERRIBLE position for this country to be in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    The single most important feature of these programs is you don't know what they are. In what sense does this make you a responsible citizen?

    And for people who live outside the sovereignty of the United States, you appear to be taking control of more than is yours. Is it not our responsibility to push back?

    And when you are engaged in discussion on these issues, you feign confusion and lie. Shall we wait for you to give back what is ours?

    You stupid, stupid Americans. You radicalise normal people.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #100
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The danger is not that the government will actively invade the privacy of every single person. Indeed, that is impractical with available resources. The danger is that, because the information is readily accessible on everyone, when the government does decide to target someone, legitimately or not, they have a wealth of information at their fingertips. Plenty of people think they have nothing to hide until someone else goes after them, using this information as ammunition. Just imagine the McCarthy hearings in the internet age.


    Sometimes information is classified for bad reasons, e.g. to prevent embarrassment to those in power. This is against regulations, but if the information has already been classified, it is very hard to know much less prove what has happened.

    Secrecy is closely related to trust. The government trusts individuals with security clearances to know certain secrets. More broadly, however, we citizens trust our government to keep secret only what is necessary, and to use that secret information only in the national interest. Since these activities and information are outside the usual public scrutiny, we cannot, in the immortal words of President Reagan, "trust but verify". At times in our history, however, it becomes apparent that the government has betrayed that trust. The rational response is to make necessary corrections, and to require greater accountability until trust can be reestablished.

    Lateralus and Kalach have the right idea:
    I agree with what you are saying. The difference in today's world is that there are no boundaries and walls. The worst psychopaths in the world are your next door neighbor. Also, in the same way we have had an explosion of methods to facilitate cheap communication between each other (Internet, Voice over IP, Smart Phones, etc.), the bad guys can use these same methods to communicate with each other. As we are able to create this little forum with a group of people interested in obscure topics such as cognitive functions, others are able to easily, cheaply and securely establish such communities for much more nefarious purposes as well and the ability to tear them down and move them quickly and easily to avoid detection. They also have the most sophisticated means available of both protecting themselves as well as methods for attacking others electronically. The world has changed. The country has been intercepting and decoding communications since at least the 1940s. Underwater telecommunications cables were tapped by submarines in the 1950s. We had spies. Methods are changing/different now - or at least being supplemented.

    For those of you that have interest, download the PDF report in this link. it will give you some small taste of some of the stuff that is going on.

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