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  1. #71
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    In the case at hand, I think the value (to the State) of IDing voters outweighs the burden obtaining such ID places on the same.
    Specifically, what do you see as value and burden?
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  2. #72
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    There are many good reasons to have a state-issued ID, and many activities that are difficult without it. This is a good reason for issuing one to every adult at no cost, and for recording substantiating documents as Cafe suggested. It is NOT a reason for making voting just one more activity that is difficult for the poor and disadvantaged. Their voices are already underrepresented enough. Not surprisingly, the groups that promote voter ID requirements generally oppose the political agenda of this demographic.
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  3. #73
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    It should be required, but it's not a federal concern, and I do have a problem with the idea of a national ID requirement.
    You lose.

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  4. #74
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There are many good reasons to have a state-issued ID, and many activities that are difficult without it. This is a good reason for issuing one to every adult at no cost, and for recording substantiating documents as Cafe suggested. It is NOT a reason for making voting just one more activity that is difficult for the poor and disadvantaged. Their voices are already underrepresented enough. Not surprisingly, the groups that promote voter ID requirements generally oppose the political agenda of this demographic.
    So then make state IDs free. Takes care of it easily enough. Would that be acceptable? If not, then I don't accept your reasoning.
    You lose.

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  5. #75
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    So then make state IDs free. Takes care of it easily enough. Would that be acceptable? If not, then I don't accept your reasoning.
    Is the office issuing IDs open only during business hours (requires taking time from work)?
    Is the office on public transit routes?
    Is the paperwork required to get the ID costly or hard to obtain (e.g. birth certificates)?
    Is the wait time long (more time away from work)?

    Paying for the ID is only part of the problem. As Cafe has already explained, poor people often have trouble losing the work time, also have trouble getting to the ID office, especially if not on a bus/train route, and have the cost and delay of getting birth certificates or additional documents, especially if they do not have utilities or rent/mortgage in their name.

    Yes, all of these hurdles can eventually be overcome, but the point about voting is that it should not require hurdles. A voter is not applying for something like a job, or a public assistance benefit. A voter is entitled to vote simply by being an adult citizen. Since there is no evidence that voter fraud is a problem in U.S. elections, and the irregularities that do arise wouldn't be addressed by an ID requirement, it serves no useful purpose and just puts one more stumbling block in the way of our least advantaged voters.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #76
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    So then make state IDs free. Takes care of it easily enough. Would that be acceptable? If not, then I don't accept your reasoning.
    This is what I said. I think that, even if you have to pay for a DL still, having a state ID itself should be free since it helps out the citizens and the state itself a LOT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Is the office issuing IDs open only during business hours (requires taking time from work)?
    Is the office on public transit routes?
    Is the paperwork required to get the ID costly or hard to obtain (e.g. birth certificates)?
    Is the wait time long (more time away from work)?
    I'm poor. Not dirt poor, but I live off of less than $12,000 a year, and I particularly only get $500/month from that. I've been doing this for years now. I know it sucks being poor. I still think that these excuses are just that--excuses.

    You NEED these things. You need an ID to function. You need a birth certificate. I would seriously (And have before) adjust my daily needs and concerns to get things that I need to improve my quality of life. I had to eat crappy cheap food and ask my neighbors for food sometimes because I refused to go into debt to pay my bills and fix the car I need to get to work.

    What is stopping the community from developing systems to help poor people obtain the rights to vote? Do you not think that campaign money from democrats or others would be allocated to help people that will vote for people helping them? Everything is SO negative that it makes me want to throw my whole wallet in the river. It is not an impossible endeavor. Hard for some? Yes. Absolutely. Especially hard when people that come from Mexico don't have birth certificates. But not impossible. At all. I have a State ID, Texas has NO public transit, I'm poor and spending my money helping my family because they are broke, and we'd ALL be poor without my DL because it is what gets me jobs and work, and helps me go to school, and everything else.

    You really do need an ID. It does NOT have to be a State ID to vote.. but you need one to register to vote. It makes sense that later on you prove who you are again. Poor people lose things to robberies, fires, etc. But that's just another hurdle and obstacle we face. It is not a burden anymore so than the rest of daily life of careful budgets, unreliable income, and conservative spending.
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  7. #77
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    kyuuei, in many states it DOES need to be a state ID to vote.

    There is no need for a system to "help poor people obtain the rights to vote." They HAVE the rights to vote. What they don't always have is the means to jump through the hoops that are placed between them and voting. I agree that everyone needs ID but in the absence of widespread voting fraud I don't believe it is necessary to place that condition on voting. We should be making it easier to vote, not harder- it is not a privilege, it's a right and a responsibility.

  8. #78
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'm poor. Not dirt poor, but I live off of less than $12,000 a year, and I particularly only get $500/month from that. I've been doing this for years now. I know it sucks being poor. I still think that these excuses are just that--excuses.
    I would accept that if there were an actual problem to be solved by requiring voter ID. Since there is not, any impediment serves no purpose, except perhaps to motivate people to get IDs they can use elsewhere, but that is not the job of our electoral system.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    What is stopping the community from developing systems to help poor people obtain the rights to vote? Do you not think that campaign money from democrats or others would be allocated to help people that will vote for people helping them? Everything is SO negative that it makes me want to throw my whole wallet in the river.
    First, poor people already have the right to vote. Our Constitution provides that. What they lack sometimes is the practical means to use that right. What stops the community from helping them? Usually needless regulation and red tape put in place by wealthy and influential groups who oppose the political agenda of the poor and disadvantaged.

    We had a huge brouhaha last year when certain counties wanted to expand early voting to include more weekend days, so more people could vote without losing work time. Many local churches were planning to take advantage of this, organizing transportation for the elderly and handicapped on the weekend when they could get volunteers. The extended hours were forbidden by officials at the state level, and the Board of Elections members responsible for the change were threatened with removal and malfeasance charges. As a longtime member of the League of Women Voters, I have also seen many new obstacles in recent years just to voter registration by volunteer groups like ours. Yes, all of this can be overcome, but it takes time and money, with the net result being fewer voters registered and at the polls.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #79
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    is it hard to get an ID in the US?

    I mean, we have to provide ID here to vote, but if you don't have a driver's licence or passport it's relatively easy to get a proof of age card which is a valid form of id here.

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  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nijntje View Post
    is it hard to get an ID in the US?
    Apparently. cafe gave the example of a friend, a divorcée who has four kids, who can't go get ID because she lost her birth certificate, Social Security card and all her other ID and the burden of caring for four kids is too much for her to take a couple hours out of a day to get it all straightened out.


    I can only imagine the lulz that would ensue if 'murricans were not only required to present ID at polling stations, but were (like Australians) REQUIRED TO VOTE.

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