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  1. #61
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    There is no existing problem needing to be solved here, just a new problem in the making.
    In-person voting fraud sounds like the type of thing that would be difficult to detect and to prove without having state-issued ID's requirements in place, and the potential for abuse exists regardless of available evidence. I see no reasonable justification in making the anti-fraud measures in voting substantially less secure than the anti-fraud measures in place for receiving government benefits.

  2. #62
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    In-person voting fraud sounds like the type of thing that would be difficult to detect and to prove without having state-issued ID's requirements in place, and the potential for abuse exists regardless of available evidence. I see no reasonable justification in making the anti-fraud measures in voting substantially less secure than the anti-fraud measures in place for receiving government benefits.
    When you apply for assistance, they make copies of your documents, so you do not have to keep presenting them if, say, you were to go off assistance and then re-apply. If you lose your ID, you have to present all of the documents all over again. It would be extremely helpful if the BMV would look up whether or not you presented the documents last time you applied for a license and allow that previous acceptance when you need a replacement or an address or name change.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  3. #63
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    When you apply for assistance, they make copies of your documents, so you do not have to keep presenting them if, say, you were to go off assistance and then re-apply. If you lose your ID, you have to present all of the documents all over again. It would be extremely helpful if the BMV would look up whether or not you presented the documents last time you applied for a license and allow that previous acceptance when you need a replacement or an address or name change.
    Fair enough, but you still need to present the documents to get an ID in the first place, the inconvenience of which is deemed necessary for basic fraud prevention.

  4. #64
    Senior Member ceecee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Fair enough, but you still need to present the documents to get an ID in the first place, the inconvenience of which is deemed necessary for basic fraud prevention.
    It is a FAR bigger pain in the ass if you are a woman.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Fair enough, but you still need to present the documents to get an ID in the first place, the inconvenience of which is deemed necessary for basic fraud prevention.
    I don't concede that this is needed to prevent voter fraud, but I wouldn't think it was a big deal as long as everyone had access to the necessary documents regardless of means.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  6. #66
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post


    It seems to be thought of as some sort of "poll tax"; requiring citizens to prove their identity with a $50-$100 (assumed value for the sake of argument) piece of ID is 'barrier' to people exercising their right to vote.


    [devil's advocate]If people are too poor and disorganized to obtain a piece of state-issued photo ID maybe they shouldn't be allowed to vote.[/devil's advocate]
    wouldnt it be easier to give people who rely on social security to get free picture ID if they dont have one already? or is that what commies do, hence not something that US could ever do because of the cold war propaganda?
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    wouldnt it be easier to give people who rely on social security to get free picture ID if they dont have one already? or is that what commies do, hence not something that US could ever do because of the cold war propaganda?
    Apparently it's easier to just not require any proof of identity at all.

  8. #68
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Apparently it's easier to just not require any proof of identity at all.
    cafe just told that you do need to prove your identity
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  9. #69
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    And FWIW, a person could be working the just under 30 hours a lot of companies have cut down to in order to avoid having to provide healthcare for their employees and still earn less than $1000/month. Around here, a lot of jobs pay $8/hr. The folks earning that still have to pay their payroll taxes, so it'd be closer $7.40/hr net, if nothing else is taken out. That leaves a person with about $900/month, despite working as many hours as their employer will give them.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #70
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    wouldnt it be easier to give people who rely on social security to get free picture ID if they dont have one already? or is that what commies do, hence not something that US could ever do because of the cold war propaganda?
    A viable option--only usually to get benefits you need to have presented ID in the first place. What we need is to get people IDs that have never been issued state IDs.. those not getting benefits of any sort, who are sort of off the radar, and encourage them to be more involved.

    It's a small minority, that I argue aren't really the voting type, but every vote (sort of) counts in this country, which makes arguments like cafe's valid. If state IDs were mandatory for residents and offered for free, then people would only pay for replacements in the case of theft. Cafe's point of having documents recorded in a system would be really useful--but a lot of money and time to set up for a state that isn't even offering IDs for free, more less free databases for people. Not nearly as viable of an option as simply offering 1 free replacement for any important document ever and a free state ID.
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