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  1. #11
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Is there a type of ID available to the average citizen that is not a driver's license?
    A driver's license pretty much replaces a State ID, but everyone is capable of getting a state issued ID. The driver's license is simply a sort of upgraded version of that. Most states work like this. Younger citizens don't much have to worry about it, but even they can carry IDs of some sort if desired.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm okay with it if we provide people with easier access to obtaining identification. It's not easy for everyone.
    Completely understandable.. I think that the presence of the Internet and being able to do more things online is starting to help with this a lot. It isn't perfect, by any means, but DMV websites are starting to post all kinds of information on what is required to do x action, and numbers to call if there are further technical questions. Initial pushes are always a B, but renewing things can be done online usually, and many states are starting to incorporate more things on the internet.

    I see what you're saying about things being hard for poorer people--trust me I know. But ID's are super important. You need identifications to get the basics in this country. Something tells me if they cannot get to a DMV, they probably have trouble getting to voting booths as well, and voting probably isn't at the top of their priority list (even though it should be). But, since I won't infer, it is ultra important that people have an ID of some sort. It is the single most useful thing I have ever had in my life. An ID will often times trump the waiting period on replacing a birth certificate. With a valid state ID you need not skip out on meals to pay for a birth certificate to be replaced. SS cards are the worst, I think, and having an ID will help alleviate that too. They're far easier to replace online now than they were before as well. Libraries and other public services give people internet access, and there's always good old fashioned networking.

    [*]proof of address- This is easy if the utilities at the place where you live are in your name. If you are living in a household where they are not or if you have had to have someone else get stuff turned on for you in their name because you've got an old bill you can't afford to pay off or if you are sofa surfing or staying in shelters, you probably don't have two documents that prove you live where you say you live.
    This one is a bit iffy for me, though. The process of showing where you live should be as simple as a valid signature and copy of ID of some sort from the head of household if that is not you. I don't think it really is that complicated elsewhere, this was pulled randomly from Oregon's official DMV site
    Homeless
    If you are homeless, you may use a descriptive address such as "under the west end of the Burnside Bridge." If you use a descriptive address must also provide a mailing address and proof that you are a resident of or domiciled in Oregon.
    I don't see why it takes bills to do that. They need a proof of address though because, with voting, who is to say I live in California without an ID showing that? I can have a Texas ID, go to Cali, and vote republican anyways because screw you liberals!

    Personally, about half the time I've gone to the license branch, it has turned out that there is some reason I can't do what I came to do. Usually some document I didn't realize I needed. I don't have much of an excuse for that: I have internet access at home and I'm literate. What if I wasn't very literate, didn't have internet access and I didn't have the money for gas or a dependable vehicle?
    I know, because I do the same. Most of the time, if I had bothered to look at it myself more and study it, I would have realized my error, but hindsight is 20/20. But when do we just say that this lack of literacy, lack of internet, lack of resources.. We really need to push people to motivate them to get the basics that they need to drive themselves up and out of their situations. They can get things like food stamps, TANF, workforce solutions, and other resources if they have an ID to help them with that. But they need identification for this sort of thing. It's the most basic of necessities, to me, when it comes to functioning in our modern day society. If they cannot function, they're going to have a hard time voting anyways.

    There is a lot of iffy-ness on this topic because on the one hand, law makers can try and exclude the poor (probably) and push this to exist.. and on the other hand, this could be something to get as many people registered into our system and on their way to functioning as possible.

    It's difficult, but not impossible.. and people need an ID for so many other things than just potentially voting. I agree it's a pain in the ass, and it needs to be streamlined.. you'd think as often as they do it they'd eventually cut down all the bull crap until it's a simple 1.2.3. process. But.. An ID is anything. A state ID is not the only form of ID. a birth certificate coupled with something like a documentation of residence could substitute. Considering homeless people don't need much to show they live in the state, I don't think that'd be so bad. A passport would work. An *expired* ID will still show vital basics that has potential to be used (so even someone who got their DL revoked could still show that they are who they say they are).

    I guess what I'm saying is I should amend my statement. IDs should be required, but so too should streamlining the process to the point where 100% of residents desiring to vote of every state has access to and has obtained an ID prior to a law coming into effect. I think making the first two birth certificate replacements free (I doubt it's that much of a pain in the ass now a days), and creating a form of residence in a state that would show proof of living in the state that's more flexible than the current system would be a very good starting point for that. A fair compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    What cafe said, plus if you work normal business hours you have to take time off from work to go to the DMV. That only works if you work a decent job with PTO or at least the understanding that you might need to take unpaid time off to TCB.
    Oy that's the worst part about the DMV. I'm lucky in that the latest stuff I've needed to go there for could be cared for online.
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  2. #12
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    Yep, I think it's okay. Why? I think it's patently obvious why.

    Providing ID has been law here for a long time now. You can provide:

    1) a piece of ID with your name, address and a photograph (i.e. a driver's licence or provincial/territorial ID card)
    2) two "authorized" pieces of ID, both of which must have your name on them and at least one of which must have your address on it. The list of authorized pieces of ID is quite long; it includes things like utility bills, bank account statements, credit cards, debit cards, mortgage or lease statements, a birth certificate, a passport, a social insurance number card, a health insurance card, vehicle registration or insurance documents... Having a couple of these is not difficult by any means for an adult.
    3) if for some miraculous reason the voter in question can't provide the aforementioned documents they have another eligible voter from the same polling division (e.g. a neighbour) attest to their identity and place of residence

    It's not difficult, and not requiring simple evidence that the person trying to vote actually lives where they claim to live is on the face of it... pretty ridiculous...
    Last edited by 93JC; 06-30-2013 at 03:52 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Here, in order to prove residency, you generally have to have two computer generated pieces of mail with your name and address on them. If you can't do this, then you can:
    You are at least 18 years old but cannot submit the required documents. An Indiana Residency Affidavit for you must be signed at a license branch by a person who you are living with. The person signing the affidavit must submit their valid Indiana driver's license or identification card, one document proving their identity, and two documents proving their Indiana residency.

    So they have to go with you and they have to have an ID, a separate document proving your identity, and two documents confirming their address. When I asked about doing this for my sixteen year old, I was told that I needed to bring:
    1. My state issued ID
    2. My birth certificate
    3. My marriage license (because my current name is not the same as the one on my birth certificate)
    4. 2 Documents with my street address

    I just got three of the kids Social Security cards replaced, but I lost mine at the same time I lost theirs and I have an ID and know my Social Security number so it didn't even cross my mind that I need to replace my card.
    Lucky for us, my husband still has his Social Security card. Otherwise he'd have to wait.

    Homeless applicants without a residence address. You must complete a residency affidavit and provide a letter from the government entity or not-for-profit organization on its letterhead showing the facility’s name, address, and telephone number, and showing the legal representative’s name, signature, and signature date. The legal representative must state in the letter that the entity or organization provides services to the applicant and will accept delivery of mail for the applicant.


    If you happen to lose all of your papers, you're pretty much screwed because you need ID to get a birth certificate and a Social Security card and you need a Social Security card and birth certificate to get an ID.

    I'd have no problem requiring ID if it was not like climbing through the circles of hell in order to get ID under some circumstances. I am in favor of compulsory voting and a national voting holiday, too.

    Edit:
    In my state, in order to vote, you need to have an
    ID that:
    1. Display your photo

    2. Display your name, and the name must conform to your voter registration record. Conform does not mean identical. Below are examples of names that would conform to "Robert John Crew"

    Robert John Crew
    Robert J. Crew
    Robert Crew
    R. John Crew
    R. J. Crew

    Bob John Crew
    Bob J. Crew
    Bob Crew
    John Crew
    J. Crew

    3. Display an expiration date and either be current or have expired sometime after the date of the last General Election (November 2, 2010)

    NOTE: An ID issued by the US Department of Defense, a branch of the uniformed services, the Merchant Marine, or the Indiana National Guard is not required to have an expiration date, or may state that the document has an "Indefinite" expiration date.


    4. Be issued by the State of Indiana or the U.S. government


    If you can't provide that,
    Exemptions do exist for the indigent, those with a religious objection to being photographed, and those living in state-licensed facilities that serve as their precinct's polling place. If you are wishing to claim an exemption from the photo ID requirement based on indigence or a religious objection, you may do so in one of two ways:

    Go the polls on Election Day, and cast a provisional ballot. Within 10 days of the election, visit the county election office and affirm that an exemption applies to you.
    Vote absentee-in-person at the county election office before Election Day, and while there, affirm that an exemption applies to you.
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  4. #14
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I'm okay with it if we provide people with easier access to obtaining identification. It's not easy for everyone.

    I'm actually dealing with this stuff right now. We are working on getting learner's permits for two of our kids and changing our address on my husband's and my ID. All of us were born in the US. I think, maybe, one of my husband's great grandparents might have been from the old country and that would be our most recent non-American ancestor. We've been living in this city since 2002. But it's still a pretty big pain in the rear and we are a lot better off than many, many people.
    Cafe is right on the money with this post. A good summary of the case against voter ID can be found at the League of Women Voters of Minnesota. In addition to the costs and difficulties of getting an ID, they point out that voter fraud is almost nonexistent, and the handful of improperly cast ballots that were found (and therefore not counted) would not have been prevented by requiring ID. Apparently an ID requirement would be constitutional in Minnesota only if the IDs were provided at no cost, adding one more economic argument against the measure. Bottom line then is that requiring ID addresses a problem that is virtually nonexistent, wouldn't prevent what few improperly cast ballots there are (which are being caught by existing measures), while effectively disenfranchising the most vulnerable members of society. Yes, having an ID is useful for many things, but assuming the statistics on this site are correct (and LWV is generally meticulous with facts), many people are somehow getting by without one. Most of these people, however, would not vote for the political factions most vocal in supporting ID requirements. Go figure.

    BTW, interesting fact about state IDs: I helped my Dad get one last year when he moved to a different state. Had he still had a driver's license, the new state would have taken his license, checked his eyesight, and given him a new license. Having only a state ID from his old state, he was required to provide his original birth certificate, social security card, and proof of residence, same as if he had never had an ID at all! The process of getting a state ID needs to be much more streamlined and reasonable before one's access to the polls can be tied to it.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Cafe is right on the money with this post. A good summary of the case against voter GOVERNMENT-ISSUED PHOTO ID can be found at the League of Women Voters of Minnesota.
    Fixed that for you.

  6. #16
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Do you think it is ok to require identification for voting? Why or why not?
    Vote early, and vote often.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Do you think it is ok to require identification for voting? Why or why not?
    It's okay if a free, voting-only ID is available. If not, then it's just another form of poll tax.
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  8. #18
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Here in Germany every citizen has a national ID card (which is valid for intervals of 10 years). When you move, you have to update your adress on it within a week (they just put a little sticker with the new adress on your old ID card). You can travel within Europe with this card instead of using a passport and are supposed to always carry it on your person. It is normally used in situations in which Americans would use a social security number or a drivers license.

    Once that's done you automatically get your voting documents mailed to you whenever there is an election without having to register and then use those papers and your national ID card at the voting poll.

    Works pretty fine if you ask me.
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  9. #19
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    Fixed that for you.
    Not sure what your point is. Unless polling places will accept non-government-issued IDs like student or employer IDs, this is one in the same. In any case, I meant exactly what I wrote, which encompasses any ID requirement. Your edit is thus not fixing anthing, but rather perverting my intent. I assume you are able to express your own opinion without trying to change someone else's.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Not sure what your point is. Unless polling places will accept non-government-issued IDs like student or employer IDs, this is one in the same. In any case, I meant exactly what I wrote, which encompasses any ID requirement. Your edit is thus not fixing anthing, but rather perverting my intent. I assume you are able to express your own opinion without trying to change someone else's.
    It's not a matter of opinion. You presented this link from the League of Women Voters of Minnesota and stated it is "a good summary of the case against voter ID". You're not wrong, just imprecise. The scope of their arguments is very narrow, only dealing with the implications of government-issued photo identification.

    You say "Unless polling places will accept non-government-issued IDs like student or employer IDs, this is one in the same." I say... why wouldn't they accept non-government-issued ID?

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