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  1. #141
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    See, idealistically I would support ID requirement, but because of situations like the one Cafe has described I would never press for it. In an idealistic world where we would have ID requirements for voting, we would also have low-cost, clean, efficient and wide-reaching public transportation, low-cost safe childcare programs, and other measures to make things more equal and fair for everyone regardless of their starting circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis
    My biggest complaint with voter ID laws is that they is justified by the need to combat voter fraud, but fraud is almost nonexistent, and most of those few incidents would not be prevented by an ID requirement.
    Yeah, exactly. They're good in theory but when you look at them in terms of what's actually going on in real life, they're really nothing but another hurdle to the already disenfranchised. It'd be money and time much better spent elsewhere.

  2. #142
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    From the new republic.

    Finally, Real Numbers on Voter ID

    One of the most frustrating discussions of 2012 was about voter identification laws. Voter ID laws seemed like they would disproportionately impact non-white, student, and elderly voters, who were widely assumed to tilt Democratic. There were big, flashy numbers about the number of registered voters without photo identification. Pennsylvania, for instance, famously announced that 759,000 registered voters didn’t have photo identification, causing a hyperventilating Dave Weigel to depict the law as “an apocalypse waiting to happen.” But voter ID laws had been implemented across the country over the last decade, and there just wasn’t solid evidence that voter ID laws meaningfully reduced turnout, let alone hurt the performance of Democratic candidates. Even the best studies were very weak, and there were states like Georgia and Indiana, where Obama excelled after voter ID laws were enacted. The consequences of voter ID laws were imperceptible.

    .....

    These data leave no question about whether voter ID laws have a disparate impact on non-white voters. In that sense, Democratic fears and Republican hopes are confirmed. But the North Carolina data also suggests that voter ID laws are unlikely to flip the outcome of a national election, even if it does have an objectionable, disparate impact on non-white and Democratic-leaning voters. That doesn’t mean it couldn't play a role in a close election—and close elections do happen. But Republicans expecting to flip Pennsylvania or Democrats fearing that Republicans will steal elections with voter ID should be circumspect about the comparatively modest electoral consequences. Many of the registered voters without a photo ID just aren't voting and 40 percent of them are probably voting Republican. If you want voter ID because you think you'll steal Pennsylvania, or you're opposed because you're concerned it's a Democratic apocalypse, move on. It's not the apocalypse, even if it is an affront to voting rights.
    The benefit of knowing who's voting, and having a more standardized process limiting both fraud and the perception of the same, is that it increases confidence in our elections.

    Given the electorally imperceptible negative impact (to quote the article) on minorities, and the myriad of ways we can make it easier to obtain ID, I don't see any real downside to requiring voter ID.

    We will see if this nuanced argument gets any hearing outside of the rarified air of The New Republic on the left.

    Thus its disingenuous to argue that Jim Crow has returned, or that this will disenfranchise voters. It won't.

    It has a tiny effect on the margin, but the standardization of the voting process is worth it. Your job is now to argue that the harm caused by ID laws, outweighs the benefits.

  3. #143
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I want to hear more about " the myriad of ways we can make it easier to obtain ID." I am all for this.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  4. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I want to hear more about " the myriad of ways we can make it easier to obtain ID." I am all for this.
    I'll leave that to the left to care about.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I want to hear more about " the myriad of ways we can make it easier to obtain ID." I am all for this.
    set up a bar code for each ID and use the bar code on a "temporary ID" which is printed on paper that can be scanned by any phone to bring up the IDs from a server, and send that out to everybody's email - the server can also attach other measurements, like fingerprints or voice key or whatnot (if the ID verification service needs to verify further you are who you say you are).

  6. #146
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'll leave that to the left to care about.
    Then I'll leave it to the left to determine what the ID requirements are for voting. When the right is ready to tackle the practical issues, we can revisit voter ID.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Then I'll leave it to the left to determine what the ID requirements are for voting. When the right is ready to tackle the practical issues, we can revisit voter ID.
    Grow up we have no incentive to care.

    The left comes up with policy proposals for their pet subjects (that benefit them) and we come up with policies for ours (which benefit us).

    That would be like me asking democrats to come up with entitlement reform. I wont hold my breath.

    EDIT - the main bullet point being, I have no incentive to come up with your sides policy platform on this. And I mostly don't care.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Grow up we have no incentive to care.

    The left comes up with policy proposals for their pet subjects (that benefit them) and we come up with policies for ours (which benefit us).

    That would be like me asking democrats to come up with entitlement reform. I wont hold my breath.

    EDIT - the main bullet point being, I have no incentive to come up with your sides policy platform on this. And I mostly don't care.
    What are the benefits to liberals vs conservatives here? How is it about "sides" in this context?
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #149
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Took me a while to read and come back to this, but fraud just seems like such a small thing I don't know what to think about it.

    I mean, in the absence of ID, what do you do to cheat? Go to multiple polling stations and vote in each one? (Don't you need a registration card?) If it's that easy(?) it seems like catching fraud would be difficult.

    But aside from that, if the numbers are right (and the Brennan Report does seem a bit...thin, 970 some people? though I'm no statistician), doesn't seem like there is really much benefit to requiring the ID, now, at least. Doesn't discount the possibility that fraud will become more widespread in the future in the absence of ID.

    I still like the mobile DMV idea. I think they actually have them some places. Sure, gas ain't cheap, but costs a lot less than building a new DMV office in the boonies that doesn't get a lot of traffic anyway.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #150
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I guess in practice this is a left vs right issue based on real factors of constituency mixed with false posturing about 'see poor people, we care about you, vote for us' but it's silly to think in these terms. Do what's right for the country to function instead of pandering.

    But given a limitation of resources (time, energy), in this case conservatives lawmakers don't see a whole lot of benefit to getting this done when they could being spending those resources on doing something (creating initiatives) to directly benefit their constituents, most of which aren't effected by not having an ID. Same is true of liberals, most aren't effected by not having an ID either, but a very small portion is. It also helps them look good.


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