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  1. #111
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not until just now.

    Should the state and the tax paying populace be on the hook for every single fiscal externality of her life choices?

    Maybe she shouldn't have had 4 kids.
    I don't see how making voting accessible to all citizens is the state and tax payers being on the hook.

    And, like I said, she's not an isolated case. 35% of all US kids live in single parent families. 80% of those families are low-income. So that would be almost 30% of all US kids living in low-income single parent families.

    The Right loves to villainize poor single moms. 80% of them work and my friend will go back to work once it makes financial sense if her health holds out. As it is, the only thing she gets is foodstamps, not welfare. The few hundred bucks a month the kids get from their dad's disability check has her making too much to get cash assistance.

    You don't have to be a single parent family to be poor. 45% of all American children live in low-income families and 22% of all US children live below the poverty line.

    You can blame my friend for being poor and having too many kids but almost half the damn country is right in that boat with her. I don't think we should make them or anyone else move heaven and earth in order to vote.

    If we do, then we need to stop pretending that we have some kind of democracy and equality.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't see how making voting accessible to all citizens is the state and tax payers being on the hook.

    And, like I said, she's not an isolated case. 35% of all US kids live in single parent families. 80% of those families are low-income. So that would be almost 30% of all US kids living in low-income single parent families.

    The Right loves to villainize poor single moms. 80% of them work and my friend will go back to work once it makes financial sense if her health holds out. As it is, the only thing she gets is foodstamps, not welfare. The few hundred bucks a month the kids get from their dad's disability check has her making too much to get cash assistance.

    You don't have to be a single parent family to be poor. 45% of all American children live in low-income families and 22% of all US children live below the poverty line.

    You can blame my friend for being poor and having too many kids but almost half the damn country is right in that boat with her. I don't think we should make them or anyone else move heaven and earth in order to vote.

    If we do, then we need to stop pretending that we're have some kind of democracy and equality.
    First and foremost, voting is accessible to your friend and the entirety of the qualified (of age, not a felon) populace as it sits. No one is saying your friend can't vote, we are just saying that and ID should be required to do so.

    An ID that is required to do most things in life. Just because the DMV isn't right next door to her house doesn't mean that it's impossible. It just means that it's not simple.

    Ask a friend for a ride, hop on the bus, save up and take a cab. These are the kind of things people do everyday when they have to get somewhere. I don't see how those actions amount to moving heaven and Earth.

    Stupid decisions are stupid regardless of the number of people making them.

    If your friend really wanted to vote, she could figure out a way to make it happen. No one is stopping her from doing so. You can't frame this debate in a way that suggests that anyone is stopping anyone from voting.

    If she is unwilling to take the steps necessary to get an ID, that sound's like a choice as opposed to an externally enforced condition on her life.

  3. #113
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I think a serious democracy should do whatever it can t maximize input from the citizenry.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #114
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    First and foremost, voting is accessible to your friend and the entirety of the qualified (of age, not a felon) populace as it sits. No one is saying your friend can't vote, we are just saying that and ID should be required to do so.

    An ID that is required to do most things in life. Just because the DMV isn't right next door to her house doesn't mean that it's impossible. It just means that it's not simple.

    Ask a friend for a ride, hop on the bus, save up and take a cab. These are the kind of things people do everyday when they have to get somewhere. I don't see how those actions amount to moving heaven and Earth.

    Stupid decisions are stupid regardless of the number of people making them.

    If your friend really wanted to vote, she could figure out a way to make it happen. No one is stopping her from doing so. You can't frame this debate in a way that suggests that anyone is stopping anyone from voting.

    If she is unwilling to take the steps necessary to get an ID, that sound's like a choice as opposed to an externally enforced condition on her life.
    Yeah, I can frame the debate that way. The steps required to acquire an acceptable ID are prohibitive to people. Unnecessarily prohibitive. Voter ID laws are in place to solve a mostly imaginary problem. Other countries are apparently able to make obtaining identification accessible. I can't think of a good reason we cannot.

    I used my friend as an example so folks that haven't been in these kind of situations would understand the difficulties a person can encounter. Is it possible for her to obtain an ID? Yes. Is it difficult? Yeah, it really is. Should it be difficult? I don't think it should be, especially when we're talking about the defining right of any democracy.

    From there, my questions are why are we making it that difficult and, if we are going to be a democratic country that values equality, what can we do to make voting more accessible to all of our citizens?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Yeah, I can frame the debate that way. The steps required to acquire an acceptable ID are prohibitive to people. Unnecessarily prohibitive. Voter ID laws are in place to solve a mostly imaginary problem. Other countries are apparently able to make obtaining identification accessible. I can't think of a good reason we cannot.

    I used my friend as an example so folks that haven't been in these kind of situations would understand the difficulties a person can encounter. Is it possible for her to obtain an ID? Yes. Is it difficult? Yeah, it really is. Should it be difficult? I don't think it should be, especially when we're talking about the defining right of any democracy.

    From there, my questions are why are we making it that difficult and, if we are going to be a democratic country that values equality, what can we do to make voting more accessible to all of our citizens?
    Welp, we as a country aren't even debating if we should subsidize busing the poor to the DMV. So good luck in steering the debate in that direction.

    Come up with a way to get them ID that doesn't cost the state billions and you may get some support.

    But this is like item# 12,376,857 on the list of things the American public gives a shit about spending tax revenues on.

  6. #116
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Welp, we as a country aren't even debating if we should subsidize busing the poor to the DMV. So good luck in steering the debate in that direction.

    Come up with a way to get them ID that doesn't cost the state billions and you may get some support.

    But this is like item# 12,376,857 on the list of things the American public gives a shit about spending tax revenues on.
    It doesn't have to cost the state millions. Are we really such a shitty country that we can't manage to do what other developed countries seem to be able to do with relative ease?
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    It doesn't have to cost the state millions. Are we really such a shitty country that we can't manage to do what other developed countries seem to be able to do with relative ease?
    What other countries?

    What are their programs?

    What do they cost those countries?

    So our country is shitty if it doesn't cater to your whims?

  8. #118
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What other countries?

    What are their programs?

    What do they cost those countries?

    So our country is shitty if it doesn't cater to your whims?
    Well, I'll make a thread and we'll see what we can find out.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    If we really want everyone to have an ID, we should:

    • Have the issuing offices keep evening and weekend hours - some offices are open saturday mornings, you can also get a lot of stuff done at the post office.
    • Ensure the offices are on public transit routes - offices are always in fairly easy to get to locations by public transport. Most suburbs have their own registration office.
    • Streamline and standardize the documentation needed across state and county lines - All documentation needed to obtain ID is the same throughout Australia, we have a 100 point ID system, whereby you can bring in different things to provide ID
    • Have a mobile ID-card van visit senior centers, libraries, schools, and poor neighborhoods where transport might be an issue - we don't have this.
    • Reduce fees for supporting documents like birth certificates and marriage/divorce decrees - 9.95 and can be ordered over the internet, if you pick them up from the births and marriages they're free.
    • Help people accomplish more of this online, including at local libraries - you can register to vote online and you can renew your licence online.

    If we really want more Americans to vote, we should:

    • Move election day to a weekend
    • Increase rather than decrease the number of polling places, including early voting locations
    • Expand voting by mail
    • Make voting mandatory
    @kyuuei in bold is what we have for Cor's list. The bottom bit is how our voting works. It's on a weekend, polling places are EVERYWHERE, you can mail in your selection early if you are unable to get there, you just call and ask for someone to send you a mailing kit.

    Terrible things happen to good people every day.
    Consequentially, I am not one of the good people.
    I am one of the terrible things.
    .



    Conclusion: Dinosaurs


  10. #120
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Welp, we as a country aren't even debating if we should subsidize busing the poor to the DMV. So good luck in steering the debate in that direction.

    Come up with a way to get them ID that doesn't cost the state billions and you may get some support.

    But this is like item# 12,376,857 on the list of things the American public gives a shit about spending tax revenues on.
    Why should it cost that much money to get IDs to people?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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