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  1. #1
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    Default Muslim Leaders Deliver Anti-Grooming Sermon in wake of Muslim Peadophile ring

    Surprised not to see a thread started on this already.

    Today a sermon was read out in approximately five hundred Mosques all over the u.k to reach out to communities condemming sexual abuse and grooming of children.

    http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/new...-1226671724529

    This comes after a number of high profile cases of Muslim sex gangs preying on underage vunerable white girls. The most recent is the gang of seven members who were jailed days ago operating a gang in Oxford. This gang preyed on young girls in childrens homes aged between eleven and sixteen.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-23079649

    Earlier this year a gang from telford operating in a similar style were jailed in Telford

    http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/c...ex-abuse-gang/


    Clearly these people are not truely religious, Islam does not teach that it is ok to sexually abuse anyone
    ... but what is happening here? And why?


    One Muslim leader suggests

    "Dr Taj Hargey, imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation, said race and religion were inextricably linked to the recent spate of grooming rings in which Muslim men have targeted under-age white girls. "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...er-claims.html

    Many others suggest that it is a human problem not a religious one and that we should seperate this from religion/culture/race.

    I was listening to a radio show on LBC this afternoon discussing this issue. There were many different perspectives brought into light and i found it very informative. Unfortunately i can't link the podcast as it's membership required to access.





    Short video highlighting issue here

    http://news.sky.com/story/1109029/mu...rooming-sermon



    Will these sermons help? What to do?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  2. #2
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    if they are coming from a country where it is acceptable, they won`t perceive it as something truly wrong but just something they are not to suppose to do. cause one group as a whole has accepted it as a norm, so they wont see them selves as anything much, though they are perceived as committing a deplorable act.

    you cant expect a collective mindset to change over night, or a generation. especially one that believes they are enlightened and you are arrogant. its one of those, we been doing it for a long time and there has been nothing wrong with it until now, why are you letting western culture influence us. you are not true leader of this religion.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
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  3. #3

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    I think the sermon was necessary, necessary because there will be a lot of people from the ethno-cultural background of the survivors or target audience of the abusers who will want the assurance that its not across the board or acceptable in the muslim community.

    I think that ethnicity, culture and race are linked in this, however, I would not want to see it exploited by racists. Even if you consider it, as I believe it could be considered, a form of racism which has been operative here, further racism is no answer to the problem.

    These individuals targetted vulnerable white children and adolescents because, unlike their own communities, the females in question where not governed by some pretty patriarchal and authoritarian rules prohibiting females to be out in the community unaccompanied by male partners or male family members. I've read about how for some of the offenders this was sufficient for them to judge the children "amoral" and susceptible to seduction or some how legitimising the actions of the offenders.

    This is the fucked up weird patriarchal world view, if women arent dominated in one fashion they are in another. Its plainly wrong. Although I would say that equally wrong is the other side of the equation that weak communities with an abscence of appropriate male role models, protective, functional families and children with self awarenes and some sort of obedience towards carers and parents is just as fucked up. Its this special sort of twin hells which has made for this especially hellish scenario.

    I've read lots and lots about the children from residential care homes who were targetted and a lot of their opinions that the care system failed them and was inadequate in its response to their leaving their placements and meeting up with these men, I honestly dont know what more those carers could have done to prevent them, unless serious and multiple physical restraints of the young people involved is being considered, and certainly dont believe the young people in question are championing that, or placing them in locked secure units, which I dont believe the young people are considering either.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    if they are coming from a country where it is acceptable, they won`t perceive it as something truly wrong but just something they are not to suppose to do. cause one group as a whole has accepted it as a norm, so they wont see them selves as anything much, though they are perceived as committing a deplorable act.

    you cant expect a collective mindset to change over night, or a generation. especially one that believes they are enlightened and you are arrogant. its one of those, we been doing it for a long time and there has been nothing wrong with it until now, why are you letting western culture influence us. you are not true leader of this religion.
    There's a possibility they are coming from countries in which its been acceptable, or even countries or scenarios in which the white ethnic group is dominant or perhaps they consider that group to be dominant in Britain and that's part of the motivation, it could simply be that they targetted individuals outside of their own community in order to avoid detection by their own community and maintain some standing in their own community or with their own community following any possible detection and sentencing.

    I know from my own highly divided society that there are some people who dont mind anything which is done to "them", ie the other community, and would consider "them", ie the other community, as capable and culpable of anything, deserving blame even if victimised. Group loyalties and identities can have that sickening dehumanising effect (which is part of the reason I hate group or identity politics so much and can fathom some of left liberalism championing of it in the shape of "under doggery" or "minoritarianism" so little).

    While I would accept that group mindsets do not change overnight I dont believe that any which permit the abuse of women and children, or anyone for that matter, in the way these incidents have highlighted should endure, call me arrogant, that's just how it is and I couldnt possible see how any cultural precept could regard the seduction of children, particularly vulnerable ones who are in some way "out of control", as enlightened.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    if they are coming from a country where it is acceptable, they won`t perceive it as something truly wrong but just something they are not to suppose to do. cause one group as a whole has accepted it as a norm, so they wont see them selves as anything much, though they are perceived as committing a deplorable act.

    you cant expect a collective mindset to change over night, or a generation. especially one that believes they are enlightened and you are arrogant. its one of those, we been doing it for a long time and there has been nothing wrong with it until now, why are you letting western culture influence us. you are not true leader of this religion.
    There's a possibility they are coming from countries in which its been acceptable, or even countries or scenarios in which the white ethnic group is dominant or perhaps they consider that group to be dominant in Britain and that's part of the motivation, it could simply be that they targetted individuals outside of their own community in order to avoid detection by their own community and maintain some standing in their own community or with their own community following any possible detection and sentencing.

    I know from my own highly divided society that there are some people who dont mind anything which is done to "them", ie the other community, and would consider "them", ie the other community, as capable and culpable of anything, deserving blame even if victimised. Group loyalties and identities can have that sickening dehumanising effect (which is part of the reason I hate group or identity politics so much and can fathom some of left liberalism championing of it in the shape of "under doggery" or "minoritarianism" so little).

    While I would accept that group mindsets do not change overnight I dont believe that any which permit the abuse of women and children, or anyone for that matter, in the way these incidents have highlighted should endure, call me arrogant, that's just how it is and I couldnt possible see how any cultural precept could regard the seduction of children, particularly vulnerable ones who are in some way "out of control", as enlightened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There's a possibility they are coming from countries in which its been acceptable, or even countries or scenarios in which the white ethnic group is dominant or perhaps they consider that group to be dominant in Britain and that's part of the motivation, it could simply be that they targetted individuals outside of their own community in order to avoid detection by their own community and maintain some standing in their own community or with their own community following any possible detection and sentencing.

    I know from my own highly divided society that there are some people who dont mind anything which is done to "them", ie the other community, and would consider "them", ie the other community, as capable and culpable of anything, deserving blame even if victimised. Group loyalties and identities can have that sickening dehumanising effect (which is part of the reason I hate group or identity politics so much and can fathom some of left liberalism championing of it in the shape of "under doggery" or "minoritarianism" so little).

    While I would accept that group mindsets do not change overnight I dont believe that any which permit the abuse of women and children, or anyone for that matter, in the way these incidents have highlighted should endure, call me arrogant, that's just how it is and I couldnt possible see how any cultural precept could regard the seduction of children, particularly vulnerable ones who are in some way "out of control", as enlightened.
    been wondering if there is some kind of fetish Islamic people have toward white Europeans and this is a good part of the reason of the targeting.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    been wondering if there is some kind of fetish Islamic people have toward white Europeans and this is a good part of the reason of the targeting.
    I dont know if its a fetish, it could just be part of more arcane "atrocity" behaviour, you know "rape and pillage", take the "enemy's women and daughters" which would fit with a sort of gross patriarchal culture.

    On the other hand I have read a sci fi book called Wasp, which features sort of chaos spreading agents who aim to act like a wasp in a car, cause sufficient disruption and the car will go off the road, in the sci fi its earth versus a vastly superior alien culture but its a good study of destabilising terror of a particular kind, aiming to exploit weaknesses of any kind. It could be considered behaviour in that order of things.

    I do hope that the reaction to it does not amount to even more control freakery within regard to women and female children, its something which bothers me about these sorts of scenarios, whatever way they play out patriarchy wins.

  8. #8
    Let me count the ways Betty Blue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know if its a fetish, it could just be part of more arcane "atrocity" behaviour, you know "rape and pillage", take the "enemy's women and daughters" which would fit with a sort of gross patriarchal culture.
    That had crossed my mind, or at least that this is what is being twisted and preached inside the groups, i think it's no mistake than within each group there seemed to be an elder more clerical looking type.. a leader if you like... innercity tribalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    On the other hand I have read a sci fi book called Wasp, which features sort of chaos spreading agents who aim to act like a wasp in a car, cause sufficient disruption and the car will go off the road, in the sci fi its earth versus a vastly superior alien culture but its a good study of destabilising terror of a particular kind, aiming to exploit weaknesses of any kind. It could be considered behaviour in that order of things.
    Hmmm, another interesting suggestion, and one that resonates in many political scenarios. Historically it's not unheard of for governments to pay thugs to rile the people into revolt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I do hope that the reaction to it does not amount to even more control freakery within regard to women and female children, its something which bothers me about these sorts of scenarios, whatever way they play out patriarchy wins.
    I don't see that happening here. I think the media's coverage of this will play an important role... who controls what is released and focussed on in the news will have most control over that. I suppose we will at least find out what direction they (the powers that be) will want to go in.

    It imperitive the media attempt to unite people imo, i personally think the sermons are a good idea and should maybe be echoed in other religious halls and secular meeting grounds. We should also have some kind of basic awareness brought into schools, something appropriate for children so they understand if they are being abused and can approach a health professional teacher etc. Work also needs to be done within social services, from what i understand the social services in Oxford literally handed over children to these men. The men comming to collect them from their care homes.
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    That had crossed my mind, or at least that this is what is being twisted and preached inside the groups, i think it's no mistake than within each group there seemed to be an elder more clerical looking type.. a leader if you like... innercity tribalism.
    I would agree, there's likely to be leaders and they are likely to be people who would play that role in most respects, not just this one respect, but if there's been any "clerical" sanction of this behaviour its been a rationalisation, even the tribalistic dimension of being "their" children, as in the other community, is ultimately a rationalisation for some sick amoral objectifying behaviour.

    Hmmm, another interesting suggestion, and one that resonates in many political scenarios. Historically it's not unheard of for governments to pay thugs to rile the people into revolt.
    There's all kinds of proxy battles, foreign powers could foment and benefit from destabilising elements within other rival states borders, its plausibly deniable and cheap to do such a thing because "useful idiots" are never in short supply or people with vague grievances. Its also possible that governments foment certain elements domestically or exploit them once they act of their own volition.

    In the UK people may not have paid much attention to peadophile rings targetting vulnerable children or children in care as much if there had not been the race/ethnicity/islam thing, although I'll bet the government wont mind if there's a dividend in terms of community awareness and activity or attitude formation which serves to bolster informal or popular child protection measures or protective parenting.

    I don't see that happening here. I think the media's coverage of this will play an important role... who controls what is released and focussed on in the news will have most control over that. I suppose we will at least find out what direction they (the powers that be) will want to go in.
    Well what I was thinking was that the coverage has repeated the belief that the females being unaccompanied or uncontrolled by male family members made them vulernable and also legitimate targets in the minds of these men, I would hope that does not perpetuate some nasty sorts of domestic violence on the parts of parents and siblings controlling female family members.

    It imperitive the media attempt to unite people imo, i personally think the sermons are a good idea and should maybe be echoed in other religious halls and secular meeting grounds. We should also have some kind of basic awareness brought into schools, something appropriate for children so they understand if they are being abused and can approach a health professional teacher etc. Work also needs to be done within social services, from what i understand the social services in Oxford literally handed over children to these men. The men comming to collect them from their care homes.
    That's not my understanding of what happened but even using the full extent of their powers social care workers are very limited in what they can do to frustrate children in open placements from making contact with abusers in the community, they can gather intelligence maybe, I dont know extent to which this happened in this instance but I have read about care workers being threatened by groups of men for following children who had absconded.

    The problem is that these children didnt believe they were being abused, a lot of abuse victims rationalise their abuse as one way or another having been their choice, having been within their control or even that they controlled their abusers or that "fair exchange is no robbery", ie they were procuring drugs, alcohol, money or favours for themselves or peers (whose approval may literally be the only thing they care about).

    In my experience they are unlikely to approach any adult, let alone professionals, unless something has seriously went awry and made them change their views of their abusers, I'm not sure what work could be undertaken with social services either, I know that some workers become resigned or cynical but that is not the norm in my experience and usually only occurs after a string of incidents in which efforts to prevent, obstruct or end abuse have been frustrated.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    been wondering if there is some kind of fetish Islamic people have toward white Europeans and this is a good part of the reason of the targeting.
    As already said, I do not think it is only related to Islam per se. It rather looks like typical tribalism, especially the kind of local culture you have in some parts of Pakistan.

    In many muslim countries, what these gangs have done would lead their members to decades of jail sentence, and a huge civilian uproar.
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