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  1. #1
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    Default Immigration Discussion

    Your thoughts?

    What is your position on the subject?

    What do you think of the Corker-Hoeven amendment that builds 700 miles of fence, hires 19,000 new border patrol people, and contributes 3.5 billion to technology?

    I find this much more interesting than the DOMA ruling, which everyone pretty much knew was going to go the way it did.

    We are starting to see some liberal opposition from such publications as The New Republic Why Liberals should oppose the Immigration Bill

    T.A. Franks argument is basically:

    The country I want for myself and future Americans is one that’s prosperous, cohesive, harmonious, wealthy in land and resources per capita, nurturing of its skilled citizens, and, most important, protective of its unskilled citizens, who deserve as much any other Americans to live in dignity. This bill threatens to put all of that out of reach, because it fails to control illegal immigration. The problem is not that it provides 11 million people eventual amnesty (I don’t object to that, in theory); the problem is that it sets in motion the next waves of millions.

    That is not a fashionable concern, of course. Worrying about illegal immigration today is a lot like worrying about communists in government in 1950. It’s not that the problem isn’t legitimate or serious (there actually were, we now know, a lot of Moscow loyalists working for the U.S. government). It’s that expressing your concurrence links you to a lot of demagogues and bad actors.

    Most of America’s college-educated elites are little affected by illegal immigration. In fact, it’s often a benefit to us in terms of childcare, household help, dinners out, and other staples of upper-middle-class life. Many therefore view the problem as akin, in severity, to marijuana use—common but benign, helpful to the immigrants and minimal in its effects on Americans or anyone else. I know, because it used to be my own view.

    There’s no short way to argue why I was misguided or explain how my views evolved. Oddly enough, an early important realization came to me in Hong Kong during the SARS crisis of 2003. I thought about how Hong Kong had created a flawed but remarkable city in which even low-skilled laborers such as these men and women, who were wearing masks and wiping down railings, lived far better than similar laborers on the other side of the border. I also realized that only a wall (and I didn’t much like walls) prevented millions of people on the People’s Republic of China side of the border from coming over to take these lowly jobs for a fraction of the current wage. (Hong Kong had no minimum wage at the time.) I knew I wouldn’t want these unskilled street cleaners to lose their adequate standard of living to such unbridled competition.

    But if that was how I felt about protecting Hong Kong’s working class, why shouldn’t I feel that way about America’s?
    This is an argument that I find strong.

  2. #2
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Generaly oppose it as a giant waste of money. The wall won't do much of anything, and I'd prefer a relatively open immigration policy that just lets people became citizens and thus legally guaranteed to not work for 50 cents an hour for 12 hours a day (talk about competitive!). Usually my commerce policy is partly comprised of the phrase "keep business in, take labor in".

    As for the comparison to Hong Kong, that's pretty simple. Keeping people out of Hong Kong alone is a hell of a lot easier than guarding the entire, incredibly long, sparsely inhabited Mexican-American border. And of course the protection of such walls also requires a kind of oversight from authority that's old news for the Chinese but might not be so welcome to Americans.

    Also, I don't know how many outsiders made it into Hong Kong in that time, but a lot of people have made it into the USA illegally. They are already here, and shoving every single on of them out might be quite a chore.
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  3. #3
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    I looked him up and kinda strikes me as a news pundit for something like the 700 club. It sounds like he has nothing worth contributing.

    im getting from his argument, preserve preserve preserve, keep things the same but no future vision America that would make a difference. than there is this "protect the unskilled" not enable. his argument makes me cringe by how lacking it is.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
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  4. #4

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    The Irish invasion by stealth of every other country in the world is going to carry on whatever anyone feels about it.

  5. #5
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I'm in favor of open borders, sooo...
    Masquerading as a normal person day after day is exhausting.

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  6. #6
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Even though I'm a Liberal, I don't see the problem with fencing and policing borders. I come from a pretty isolated, island nation so I'm used to there being a 'fence' of sorts. It's hard for me to comprehend that people can just wander across a border into another country. I think the US should absolutely protect themselves from unbridled illegal immigration. I've seen quite a bit of the problems Australia has (which is basically a smaller scale version of what the US has) and I don't envy their situation and the complex issues it creates. The whole thing makes me feel very uneasily ambivalent. I think with this sort of thing you're stuck having to choose the lesser of two evils, and preventing people from getting there in the first place is perhaps that option.

    I do still believe that there needs to be improvements to how people can immigrate to the US. Clearly the current approach isn't working.
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  7. #7
    Starcrossed Seafarer Aquarelle's Avatar
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    I was just in a seminar this week about the immigrant/refugee populations in my community, and many of the Latino speakers we had suggested that if the temporary worker program were to be reinstated, thus making temporary border crossings legal and thereby rendering crossing the border less dangerous, that people who come here from Mexico (and other Central and South American countries) to find work would not stay as long. In general their preference is not to be away from their families for years at a time, but crossing the border is so expensive and dangerous that once you're here, you need to stay awhile to make it worth it. Plus going back and forth isn't easy. And these people really have no choice but to come and work in the US.

    To me this seems like the best solution. NAFTA allows for the transmission of goods across borders, but not labor. When you have first world countries like the US and Canada competing with a developing country like Mexico for the ability to sell (mainly) produce, obviously the people in the developing country, who are still growing things on small plots and doing all the work by hand, instead of on large-scale, industrial farms, are not going to be able to compete. Therefore, you need to allow for the labor to follow where the jobs are.
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  8. #8
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Your thoughts?
    We have just lost our Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, because she failed to secure our borders.

    And not only have we lost our Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, but in September the whole of the Australian Labor Party (ALP) will be voted out of office.

    And not only will the ALP be voted out of office but they will suffer a catastrophic loss of seats.

    We have a generous and successful immigration program and as well we take refugees under the United Nations 1951 Convention on Refugees.

    But all of this is predicated on secure borders, and the Labor Party and Julia Gillard have trashed our borders, and so the electorate says they must go.

    And not only must they go, but the electorate will punish them severely.

  9. #9
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    We have just lost our Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, because she failed to secure our borders.

    And not only have we lost our Prime Minister, Julia Gillard, but in September the whole of the Australian Labor Party (ALP) will be voted out of office.

    And not only will the ALP be voted out of office but they will suffer a catastrophic loss of seats.

    We have a generous and successful immigration program and as well we take refugees under the United Nations 1951 Convention on Refugees.

    But all of this is predicated on secure borders, and the Labor Party and Julia Gillard have trashed our borders, and so the electorate says they must go.

    And not only must they go, but the electorate will punish them severely.
    tldr: I no longer am in love with Julia Gillard because she wasn't afraid enough of Muslims and Asians.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    tldr: I no longer am in love with Julia Gillard because she wasn't afraid enough of Muslims and Asians.
    C'mon msg_v2 is no longer in love with Julia Gillard ex-PM because he is dallying with the Weasels and Stoats. And it will come to no good end.

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