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  1. #21
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    It's not clear if you're just intellectually aware of jiu-jitsu (BJJ), or if you've actually trained in it or actually tried some of the basic techniques presented in the video. I have trained in BJJ and practiced all of the techniques shown in the video, although I haven't used it in an actual situation outside of training. While growing up, I used simple karate and judo techniques (including throws and takedowns) I had very little practice with to end actual hostile encounters successfully. BJJ techniques were borrowed and adapted from judo. There are many documented instances of people using simple BJJ techniques with little or even no training who were able to use them to neutralize the attack, and in many cases, hold the attacker until police arrived.

    What you say about training and muscle memory is true of many martial arts and more complicated BJJ techniques. The advantage of BJJ is that it assumes that the attacker is larger, more athletic, and will take you to the ground.
    I have taken BJJ classes and I found that when I resorted to natural fighting instincts, smaller opponents were not able to overcome my size advantage with the techniques being taught (which are, by the way, the same gracie barra curriculum that instructors in the video teach). Equal sized opponents did not seem to have an advantage either and that is because we were still at the student level and my natural instincts built on experience were easier to react and adapt than someone trying to stick to the moves we were taught. I have also taken martial arts classes and found even more so than BJJ that trying to follow a rote system of movement or style was almost a disadvantage to other students.

    However, some instructors (which were double+ black belts) had developed a fighting instinct from the training and I felt during demonstrations or light sparring that they could have beat me fairly easily in a real life conflict since their principles of movement were driven by the forethought of the fighting style while mine was merely gut reaction. Because they had a high level of exposure to dynamic fighting they were able to apply the style with the same quickness as I was able to perform my own instinct-based style. Students, though, were easy because I would only have to do something faster than them, or to do something they don't expect and they didn't know how to handle it since all we were being taught was a rote system. This is similar to what a real-life attacker will do... you will not expect when or how they are going to attack you.

    The reason I say all this is because although the moves can be effective, it is not a good idea for someone, even with a moderate level of training, to forgo practical choices in defense instead assuming that they can apply their training in a real life-or-death conflict. Police officers, for instance, have said that after a 2-3 month break that they are not able to shoot as accurately as when they practice regularly. There are degrading factors of effectiveness merely in the ability to perform in training, not to mention a chaotic situation where we fall back on muscle memory.

  2. #22
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Also, I understand getting training is usually never a bad thing, but I wouldn't advise a smaller person to use a knife as a form of defense. In your home, a gun can be used if you are not surprised (shotgun, preferably, because they do not penetrate doors or drywall as easily), and on the streets, pepper spray is ideal because it can be used without question of major legal repercussions, easily deters attackers, and does not introduce a lethal weapon into the situation. There is only 1 case where a gun is useful on the street and that is against someone on a shooting spree... but even then, the ability to draw, aim, fire, and kill the shooter without being killed or killing someone else is questionable.

    Here is an interesting video on the subject, and something that I came to the same conclusion prior to seeing as a past CWP holder myself. I no longer carry a handgun because I simply do not have the training I feel to be proficient with it in a lethal situation, and it's not worth carrying the bulk.

  3. #23
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I'd say I agree with LevelZeroHero on pretty much everything.

    The first step should have been securing her house. It also helps to live in an area with good castle laws and have access to weapons. I think that people who have not actually been in much physical conflict tend to underestimate the effect of the fight or flight response on motor skills. It can be very difficult to make precise movements when you're scared shitless like you probably would be if you were a small woman and a huge dude just appeared in your home. Honestly, she probably should have stopped trying to get up unless she was planning on immediately running.

    EDIT:

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If you have time, tell the invader you're armed before brandishing.

    Once you pull shoot until they're down (never brandish a weapon you aren't going to use).

    Stop shooting once they are down, or when they turn to flee. If you shoot someone in the back you're guilty of murder.
    That isn't necessarily true and varies greatly based on what state you live in. I would bet a great deal that a woman with kids in the house wouldn't be charged with murder no matter where she shot him. There are some states where you can shoot them just for stealing from you as long as they are in your house.

    As far as announcing yourself, I wouldn't do that, especially if I were a smaller woman. Just shoot them. No one reputable is going to be there to question whether or not you announced yourself and most people don't realize how fast a person can be on you. It's hard enough to shoot someone where you want to shoot them with anything other than a shotgun and a person closing the distance fast enough could be on you before you got an accurate shot off, if you even got a shot off before they were on you.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #24
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I have taken BJJ classes and I found that when I resorted to natural fighting instincts, smaller opponents were not able to overcome my size advantage with the techniques being taught (which are, by the way, the same gracie barra curriculum that instructors in the video teach). Equal sized opponents did not seem to have an advantage either and that is because we were still at the student level and my natural instincts built on experience were easier to react and adapt than someone trying to stick to the moves we were taught. I have also taken martial arts classes and found even more so than BJJ that trying to follow a rote system of movement or style was almost a disadvantage to other students.

    However, some instructors (which were double+ black belts) had developed a fighting instinct from the training and I felt during demonstrations or light sparring that they could have beat me fairly easily in a real life conflict since their principles of movement were driven by the forethought of the fighting style while mine was merely gut reaction. Because they had a high level of exposure to dynamic fighting they were able to apply the style with the same quickness as I was able to perform my own instinct-based style. Students, though, were easy because I would only have to do something faster than them, or to do something they don't expect and they didn't know how to handle it since all we were being taught was a rote system. This is similar to what a real-life attacker will do... you will not expect when or how they are going to attack you.

    The reason I say all this is because although the moves can be effective, it is not a good idea for someone, even with a moderate level of training, to forgo practical choices in defense instead assuming that they can apply their training in a real life-or-death conflict. Police officers, for instance, have said that after a 2-3 month break that they are not able to shoot as accurately as when they practice regularly. There are degrading factors of effectiveness merely in the ability to perform in training, not to mention a chaotic situation where we fall back on muscle memory.
    I agree that following a rote system can sometimes be a disadvantage, especially when someone is not at the black belt level. The concept of distance and controlling it and how to control it is both practical and simple. It's so practical that it's put to use in every MMA fight. Your "natural instincts built on experience" statement indicates that your assessment of the effectiveness of BJJ at the basic self-defense level may not be accurate because:

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Most attackers, however, are not going to be trained martial artists or experienced boxers/wrestlers, though, just jerks who think they are entitled and that their bigger size and strength will be enough to overpower a poor, defenseless woman. A remarkably modest amount of foresight and preparation will go far in defending oneself, especially if the attacker is not expecting much of a fight. The key is for women to realize that they are not poor and defenseless, and to learn to use the weapons that, as Ene points out, are always at their disposal. Skill is very helpful, but attitude and even stamina are far more important.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    A dog helps, too.
    Very true. Although the type of dog matters. Anything over 50lbs starts to be useful. Smaller than that and they are still awesome alarms. Dog senses are amazing.

    I wouldn't be comfortable with a dog dieing on my behalf, I get too attached to dogs and I also have smaller dogs usually. Even if I had a big one, I would probably keep it somewhere where it could alert me, but wouldn't get physically involved.

    But for those who would prefer to not involve themselves a big dog will keep away most smart would be home invaders.

    Most attackers, however, are not going to be trained martial artists or experienced boxers/wrestlers, though, just jerks who think they are entitled and that their bigger size and strength will be enough to overpower a poor, defenseless woman. A remarkably modest amount of foresight and preparation will go far in defending oneself, especially if the attacker is not expecting much of a fight.
    So true. So true. Although I would recommend inaction unless you think your life is in danger already, or if you are confidant in your skills. Basically gauge the situation and wait till you have the advantage.

    The key is for women to realize that they are not poor and defenseless, and to learn to use the weapons that, as Ene points out, are always at their disposal. Skill is very helpful, but attitude and even stamina are far more important.
    Absolutely. The best thing though is to think through a situation before acting (I know its tough in a scary situation). The instant you think the attacker means you the kind of harm (your death or rape) that is worth resisting, wait till his back is turned, etc and strike as viciously as you can.

    Unless you are well trained and confidant, don't attack unless you know its necessary. Luckily knives are a hell of a tool, readily available, and used correctly very effective.

    The size disadvantage for women can definitely be overcome with a cool head and swift action, but if your not sure you must resist and fail, you could turn a theft into serious assault or murder.

    If you're holding a knife, and facing a man, he will try to protect his torso and head.

    One of the largest veins in the human body is on the inside of the thigh. If you just nick that sucker, he'll bleed out about as quick as a human can.

    In my limited experience of Krav Maga, it also tries to build on an ordinary person's natural gestures in different situations, like raising your arm to protect your head, so the defensive response builds on an instinct already present rather than developiong all new muscle memories from scratch.
    Agreed.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I'd say I agree with LevelZeroHero on pretty much everything.

    The first step should have been securing her house. It also helps to live in an area with good castle laws and have access to weapons. I think that people who have not actually been in much physical conflict tend to underestimate the effect of the fight or flight response on motor skills. It can be very difficult to make precise movements when you're scared shitless like you probably would be if you were a small woman and a huge dude just appeared in your home. Honestly, she probably should have stopped trying to get up unless she was planning on immediately running.

    EDIT:



    That isn't necessarily true and varies greatly based on what state you live in. I would bet a great deal that a woman with kids in the house wouldn't be charged with murder no matter where she shot him. There are some states where you can shoot them just for stealing from you as long as they are in your house.

    As far as announcing yourself, I wouldn't do that, especially if I were a smaller woman. Just shoot them. No one reputable is going to be there to question whether or not you announced yourself and most people don't realize how fast a person can be on you. It's hard enough to shoot someone where you want to shoot them with anything other than a shotgun and a person closing the distance fast enough could be on you before you got an accurate shot off, if you even got a shot off before they were on you.
    It's illegal to brandish in FL, and I think most other places. That's strait from lawyers (which although I'm not one I have studied law). Same applies to a warning shot.

    Warning them that your armed clears up that you knew you were in danger (feared for your life) and makes the case against you harder to make. If you happen to shoot someone of a different race the political hoopla is liable to go crazy.

    Warning them that you're armed also clears up that you have taken precautions to de-escalate the situation. If you have a duty to retreat in your home (varies by state law) you may be fucked.

    Brandishing is a huge crime, to the point that if you have a CCW and your concealment fails while walking around you are guilty of brandishing your weapon even if your shirt just came untucked or whatever.

    Also, the problem with shotguns is the spread. Its easier to hit a target, but you'll also probably fuck up a bunch of other shit in your house possibly even other people you don't want to hit.

  7. #27
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Luckily knives are a hell of a tool, readily available, and used correctly very effective.
    I agree. I don't think anyone should think about using any weapon unless they've been trained in at least the basics of its use. A knife is used at close quarters, and it's too easy for it to be taken away and used by the attacker.

    When I was a teen, I was carrying a 6" blade as a tool when I encountered a hostile person. The first thing I did was to disarm myself and make the weapon immediately inaccessible to both of us.

  8. #28
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be charged with brandishing a weapon in your own home.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I think that its important that you stop them getting in in the first place, bad shit has already happened if they've successfully invaded, if they have succeeded in getting into the property they are fair game, I figure terminate with extreme prejudice and do not let any worries about reasonable force or whatever enter into it because that is what ruthless killers depend upon.

    Stock answer finished/

    The reality is that real survivalists would consider doing whatever it takes to live through the encounter and if there's satisfaction or justice to be sought afterwards then do that, you cant do anything if you're dead, just remember what Machavelli said about if an injury is to be done someone it should be grave enough that no retribution is to be worried about, most criminals arent going to follow that or know that and time permitting you can exact as much retaliation as you want.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be charged with brandishing a weapon in your own home.
    http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/...s/0790.10.html

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES

    Chapter 790
    WEAPONS AND FIREARMS

    790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.—If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
    Doesn't matter where you are, don't pull till you need to use it.

    Ignorance of the law is no excuse my friend.

    EDIT- for instance, if there was a home invader, you pull and he stops and lays down. There's a case to be made that merely saying you were armed would have stopped him and that you didn't need to use the weapon itself to de-escalate the situation. In this instance it can be argued that brandishing the weapon was entirely unnecessary.

    I'm not saying they'll get you on that, but I am saying that it's happened before and verbally warning them makes it way easier to prove your case, and spend less in legal fees, which aren't peanuts.

    Legally its safer that way, if you are in a situation where you don't think you'll have the time to pull and do work. Then of course personal safety comes first.

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