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  1. #11
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    @LevelZeroHero: Did you watch the video I posted?

  2. #12
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    @LevelZeroHero: Did you watch the video I posted?
    Yes, of course. In practical application, though, it's one thing to talk about techniques and what to do, and completely different to apply them so easily in a real-life violent encounter.

    The truth is, if you live in a bad neighborhood you should invest in deadbolts, possibly home security system, and even window-bars for first story windows if it's bad enough. Carry pepperspray when walking to your car and lock the doors once you're inside, etc. Practical things like this will actually make you safer rather than thinking you're going to defeat someone who is bigger, stronger, and a whole lot less afraid of a fight.

  3. #13
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    Yes, of course. In practical application, though, it's one thing to talk about techniques and what to do, and completely different to apply them so easily in a real-life violent encounter.
    I thought maybe you had seen the attack video somewhere else and didn't realize that this video shows some jiu-jitsu techniques.

    It sounds like you're saying the techniques presented in the video aren't useful in a real life situation unless one has training beyond even the black belt level. What experience and knowledge do you have related to jiu-jitsu?

  4. #14
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    That woman lives in a good neighborhood.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I'm going to be honest with you, as someone who is very comfortable with physical conflict. Most people are far more interested in the feeling of security rather than practical security. That's why self-defense classes get clients despite the fact that if it were that easy to way to beat a larger opponent strictly by technique we wouldn't have such specific weight classes in wrestling tournaments. The fact is, these classes are a waste of time. To become proficient enough to instill a level of ability where it becomes applicable in a real fight, you would probably have to become at least a double or triple black belt before you have the ability to apply those skills in an actual, chaotic fight without rules in such a way that it helps you significantly.

    At some point, an attacker is going to simply barrel into you and end up on top of you. Unless you move out of the way, you're going to end up with their fists in your face. IME, either you have the instinct to move in a fight or you don't... only extreme amounts of training would change that.

    The mistake this woman made was to leave her door unlocked. If she lives in a bad neighborhood, she should get a home security system. The audible alarm and inevitable threat of police would probably deter the attacker.
    I agree insofar as you can't just take classes for two months and expect to be chuck Norris. But with much less training than you suggest one can become adequately able to resist an attacker.

    Krav Maga is brutal as all hell, and if you want to maximize bang for your buck as a girl, I would look into that. I would think about six months of training would get you well on your way to being able to stun a larger opponent enough to either flee, stab them, or whatever it is you need to do.

    As a woman (or smaller man), you have the right to to escalate force because of how much larger the aggressor is. I remember a case from Law School where the guy was adjudicated for (I think Brandishing) a shotgun when he was accosted by an NFL player. The main point being, you can use a knife or gun or baton against a larger threatening opponent.

    If it's not in your nature to resist lay down and give what they want to minimize damage.

    Edit - for any of this to be worthwhile you have to have fight in your nature first. No amount of training will turn someone who isn't a fighter into one.

  6. #16
    redundant descriptor netzealot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    I thought maybe you had seen the attack video somewhere else and didn't realize that this video shows some jiu-jitsu techniques.

    It sounds like you're saying the techniques presented in the video aren't useful in a real life situation unless one has training beyond even the black belt level. What experience and knowledge do you have related to jiu-jitsu?
    No I'm well aware of gracie barra jiu-jitsu (or more commonly known as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/BJJ). The moves can be useful, however, it's entirely different to be in a padded environment, calm and at the ready, having just gotten instruction on what's going to happen and what to do... and getting attacked where you dont pick the environment, the positioning, when it happens, and barely have a couple hours or minutes of actual muscle memory from who-knows how long ago on that specific environment, assuming you can assess the situation instantly and recall which movement to perform. Even then, you're against a larger attacker who has the initiative.

    Someone who is a double, triple black belt or beyond has had enough exposure in competitive fighting that they develop the muscle memory and principle understanding that they can adapt and use their training. That training will come back to them in a violent encounter, to the average student, and even many 1st level black belts, they do not have exposure to applying the moves in a violent encounter to make it useful and most people are not able to fall back on their training because it is not very immersive until someone logs a lot of hours at the competitive levels.

    It is vastly different when you have someone else choosing how, when, and where to attack you, and dynamically changing how they are attacking you, than to respond in a static, sterile teaching environment under the instruction of a teacher where they are only doing 1 attack, from 1 direction, repeat ad naseum.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Edit - for any of this to be worthwhile you have to have fight in your nature first. No amount of training will turn someone who isn't a fighter into one.
    This is also true, so if you don't have the instincts in the first place it is going to take a lot of training to develop them.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    No I'm well aware of gracie barra jiu-jitsu (or more commonly known as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/BJJ). The moves can be useful, however, it's entirely different to be in a padded environment, calm and at the ready, having just gotten instruction on what's going to happen and what to do... and getting attacked where you dont pick the environment, the positioning, when it happens, and barely have a couple hours or minutes of actual muscle memory from who-knows how long ago on that specific environment, assuming you can assess the situation instantly and recall which movement to perform. Even then, you're against a larger attacker who has the initiative.

    Someone who is a double, triple black belt or beyond has had enough exposure in competitive fighting that they develop the muscle memory and principle understanding that they can adapt and use their training. That training will come back to them in a violent encounter, to the average student, and even many 1st level black belts, they do not have exposure to applying the moves in a violent encounter to make it useful and most people are not able to fall back on their training because it is not very immersive until someone logs a lot of hours at the competitive levels.

    This is also true, so if you don't have the instincts in the first place it is going to take a lot of training to develop them.
    If you want to practice play fighting, take karate or tae kwon do, or any of the other martial arts that focus on the sport side of it and not the fight side of it.

    For me, Muay Thai, Combat Submission Wrestling, and BJJ were the combo. I was training at an MMA gym, and we sparred.

    Krav Maga on the other hand is designed only for real world application and focuses on being as brutal as possible, and to kill or incapacitate the attacker as quick as possible.

    I would recommend Krav Maga for someone solely interested in self defense. I can see how for BJJ to work in a self defense situation one would have to be good. Fights start on the feet, and taking down a larger opponent requires excellent technique.

    I would think one would gain usable real world skills much faster with Krav Maga.

  8. #18
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Edit - for any of this to be worthwhile you have to have fight in your nature first. No amount of training will turn someone who isn't a fighter into one.
    Exactly. This is the biggest issue for anyone considering self-defence.

    A great deal is about the mindset behind it. I myself am not a fighter and I doubt I would ever become one. I would like to think that if I was pushed and those I care about were in danger; I would act, but there is no telling without the experience.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  9. #19
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    No I'm well aware of gracie barra jiu-jitsu (or more commonly known as Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/BJJ). The moves can be useful, however, it's entirely different to be in a padded environment, calm and at the ready, having just gotten instruction on what's going to happen and what to do... and getting attacked where you dont pick the environment, the positioning, when it happens, and barely have a couple hours or minutes of actual muscle memory from who-knows how long ago on that specific environment, assuming you can assess the situation instantly and recall which movement to perform. Even then, you're against a larger attacker who has the initiative.

    Someone who is a double, triple black belt or beyond has had enough exposure in competitive fighting that they develop the muscle memory and principle understanding that they can adapt and use their training. That training will come back to them in a violent encounter, to the average student, and even many 1st level black belts, they do not have exposure to applying the moves in a violent encounter to make it useful and most people are not able to fall back on their training because it is not very immersive until someone logs a lot of hours at the competitive levels.

    It is vastly different when you have someone else choosing how, when, and where to attack you, and dynamically changing how they are attacking you, than to respond in a static, sterile teaching environment under the instruction of a teacher where they are only doing 1 attack, from 1 direction, repeat ad naseum.



    This is also true, so if you don't have the instincts in the first place it is going to take a lot of training to develop them.
    It's not clear if you're just intellectually aware of jiu-jitsu (BJJ), or if you've actually trained in it or actually tried some of the basic techniques presented in the video. I have trained in BJJ and practiced all of the techniques shown in the video, although I haven't used it in an actual situation outside of training. While growing up, I used simple karate and judo techniques (including throws and takedowns) I had very little practice with to end actual hostile encounters successfully. BJJ techniques were borrowed and adapted from judo. There are many documented instances of people using simple BJJ techniques with little or even no training who were able to use them to neutralize the attack, and in many cases, hold the attacker until police arrived.

    What you say about training and muscle memory is true of many martial arts and more complicated BJJ techniques. The advantage of BJJ is that it assumes that the attacker is larger, more athletic, and will take you to the ground.

  10. #20
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    That's why for anyone interested in the subject, I would recommend martial arts, and bladed weapons training in addition to pistol, shotgun, and rifle training.

    Think about it like a knife, being good with your hands or with blades, sharpens part of the blade, being good with pistols sharpens part of it. You get the idea, you want the whole blade sharpened.

    The best tool is to know your gut feelings (spidey sense) and trust the hairs on the back of your neck so you can evade rather than engage. Although that only applies if I'm outside of my home.
    These are all excellent recommendations, as well as your later one regarding Krav Maga. Yes, the goal of rudimentary self-defense is to save yourself and make your escape. Obviously, the equation becomes more complicated when young children are present, and your escape would leave them defenseless.

    Quote Originally Posted by LevelZeroHero View Post
    I'm going to be honest with you, as someone who is very comfortable with physical conflict. Most people are far more interested in the feeling of security rather than practical security. That's why self-defense classes get clients despite the fact that if it were that easy to way to beat a larger opponent strictly by technique we wouldn't have such specific weight classes in wrestling tournaments. The fact is, these classes are a waste of time. To become proficient enough to instill a level of ability where it becomes applicable in a real fight, you would probably have to become at least a double or triple black belt before you have the ability to apply those skills in an actual, chaotic fight without rules in such a way that it helps you significantly.

    At some point, an attacker is going to simply barrel into you and end up on top of you. Unless you move out of the way, you're going to end up with their fists in your face. IME, either you have the instinct to move in a fight or you don't... only extreme amounts of training would change that.

    The mistake this woman made was to leave her door unlocked. If she lives in a bad neighborhood, she should get a home security system. The audible alarm and inevitable threat of police would probably deter the attacker.
    You are right about locked doors and security systems, though police are often slow to respond to calls in bad neighborhoods. A dog helps, too. Most attackers, however, are not going to be trained martial artists or experienced boxers/wrestlers, though, just jerks who think they are entitled and that their bigger size and strength will be enough to overpower a poor, defenseless woman. A remarkably modest amount of foresight and preparation will go far in defending oneself, especially if the attacker is not expecting much of a fight. The key is for women to realize that they are not poor and defenseless, and to learn to use the weapons that, as Ene points out, are always at their disposal. Skill is very helpful, but attitude and even stamina are far more important.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Edit - for any of this to be worthwhile you have to have fight in your nature first. No amount of training will turn someone who isn't a fighter into one.
    Yes. Many women will take the abuse and not fight back - until their children are threatened.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Krav Maga on the other hand is designed only for real world application and focuses on being as brutal as possible, and to kill or incapacitate the attacker as quick as possible.

    I would recommend Krav Maga for someone solely interested in self defense. I can see how for BJJ to work in a self defense situation one would have to be good. Fights start on the feet, and taking down a larger opponent requires excellent technique.

    I would think one would gain usable real world skills much faster with Krav Maga.
    In my limited experience of Krav Maga, it also tries to build on an ordinary person's natural gestures in different situations, like raising your arm to protect your head, so the defensive response builds on an instinct already present rather than developiong all new muscle memories from scratch.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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