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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bilateral Entry View Post
    My opinion is that if the father would like the mother to have an abortion, but the mother refuses, then the mother is solely responsible for the child. She made the decision to keep the child, against the father's wishes, knowing full well that the father would not be supporting the child. The mother would be financially irresponsible to have a child that she cannot afford. I believe that the appropriate action would be to find a man who actually wants to have a child with her.

    There are many who do not believe in abortion. They believe that the moment the ovum is fertilized, there is something sacred about that. My girlfriend is of that belief. I have almost no sympathy on this matter. If I knocked her up, and she refused to have an abortion, then I would take care of the child. I don't think I have any obligation to, but I would do it out of love for my girlfriend. Once I start taking care of the kid, then a bond will form, and the kid would be counting on me to be there for him/her, then I would feel a responsibility for that. Funny how it works out, isn't it?
    Abortion is far from a risk-free procedure. Scarring predisposes women to complications such as placenta previa in future pregnancies. I know someone this happened to.

    Point being, it demands no health detriment for the man to decide to abort. It does for the woman. Fair? No. Reality? Yes.
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  2. #62
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iwakar View Post
    Abortion is far from a risk-free procedure. Scarring predisposes women to complications such as placenta previa in future pregnancies. I know someone this happened to.

    Point being, it demands no health detriment for the man to decide to abort. It does for the woman. Fair? No. Reality? Yes.
    In fairness, pregnancy and child birth come with health risks themselves.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    If a male gives up his parental rights before the abortion deadline, I don't see why a male should be held responsible for the child. If he fails to give up his rights before that deadline, he's responsible.

    This is the status quo:
    Female wants child, male wants child. Both get what they want.
    Female doesn't want child, male doesn't want child. Both get what they want.
    Female doesn't want child, male wants child. Female gets what she wants. The male doesn't, but he has no future responsibility.
    Female wants child, male doesn't want child. Female gets what she wants. The male doesn't and he has more than a decade of future responsibility.

    No one is forcing females to have abortions. Throwing that language around is nonsensical hyperbole. And in the case where the female wants the child and the male doesn't, she has options. She could raise it by herself, find a partner to raise it with her, give it up for adoption, or have an abortion. I view those options as a reasonable tradeoff for her increased risk. She always gets to make the ultimate decision.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #64
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    No one is forcing females to have abortions. Throwing that language around is nonsensical hyperbole. And in the case where the female wants the child and the male doesn't, she has options. She could raise it by herself, find a partner to raise it with her, give it up for adoption, or have an abortion. I view those options as a reasonable tradeoff for her increased risk. She always gets to make the ultimate decision.
    No, we aren't physically strapping them down onto tables. We'd just be forcing the woman and her child into a life of single motherhood and very likely poverty, unless she aborts. But hey, she has total freedom to make that decision, so life is awesome for her! Good thing we restored balance by giving the man the choice between having a baby with no impact on his body or walking away from a baby with no impact on his body.

    It seems like a lot of men don't understand that an abortion isn't like walking into the doctor and getting a shot. It's way more invasive and with more complications than a vasectomy, for example. There's never going to be a solution that gives everyone 100% equal choices, because biology. You're either giving priority to the mother to decide what happens to her body, or you're giving priority to the father to decide what happens to his money. Either way people will complain and it won't be 100% fair, but I think the alternative would be far, far worse than the status quo.
    -end of thread-

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    No, we aren't physically strapping them down onto tables. We'd just be forcing the woman and her child into a life of single motherhood and very likely poverty, unless she aborts. But hey, she has total freedom to make that decision, so life is awesome for her! Good thing we restored balance by giving the man the choice between having a baby with no impact on his body or walking away from a baby with no impact on his body.

    It seems like a lot of men don't understand that an abortion isn't like walking into the doctor and getting a shot. It's way more invasive and with more complications than a vasectomy, for example. There's never going to be a solution that gives everyone 100% equal choices, because biology. You're either giving priority to the mother to decide what happens to her body, or you're giving priority to the father to decide what happens to his money. Either way people will complain and it won't be 100% fair, but I think the alternative would be far, far worse than the status quo.
    All we need to do is give the man the choice to decide to financially support a child should pregnancy occur, and also give him a say in whether the child is aborted.

    A pre coitus contract would suffice.

    Then we can't be roped into supporting kids we never wanted in the first place.

  6. #66
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    I seriously don't know how anyone can think this is a major issue. Have men EVER been punished for their sexual promiscuity in any society?

    This is one of those things where men are going to say, "Hell no it isn't fair!Stupid double standards! " and women are going to say, "Tough shit because EVERYTHING ELSE we put up with isn't fair! You can be stuck with ONE thing!"

    Sex has a 100% chance of putting you at RISK for two things: disease and babies. It's something everyone knows going into it. Accidents happen. But there's different levels of murder in court because there are different kinds of murder. Accidental is one of them. Life isn't this black and white you get to choose everything all the time at any stage thing. You CHOOSE to have sex, you CHOOSE the level of protection prior to it, and you CHOOSE the way you ejaculate (most of the time.. I know, there's horror stories of women doing crazy things.. I get it) in the areas you choose. Sex does not have to be vaginal.

    Seriously, what other options are there for this? Forced abortion? Forced adoption? There is literally NO way of making this balance out perfectly for both sides. And in a culture where men haven't gotten it right in terms of treating women equally in so many other aspects of life, Yeah, I tend to favor the women in this issue. There's another life at stake.

    I know what everyone is saying, "Oh but Kyu, its just a matter of the pay! We don't want to pay!" Don't worry, most dudes don't. You're not REALLY forced to pay. You do to avoid consequences for not. Like sudden garnishing of your wages. Or losing your job because your employer isn't putting up with that drama. There are girls forced to pay for that kid they probably didn't plan on paying for either. And parents who contribute that they weren't expecting to help with. Nothing is free. If you don't pay for that kid with hard earned money, you pay for it with tax dollars later on when you're sending that kid to jail because it grew up in a shitty neighborhood, or to keep maintaining the abortion clinics everyone's trying to shut down.

    There's still no such thing as forced parenting. You are never forced to be a parent. You are forced to help pay for the baby, but I've never known money to be the deciding factor in parenthood. You can avoid paying entirely if you're that rebellious about and face social stigma, and potential jail time (but everyone knows that really never happens.. it costs more to chase down the donor than it does to just raise the kid without the money).. OR you can pay up because you chose that crazy scenario/position/chick/protection level, or you can step up and become a parent. There's still quite a few options for the dudes out there. And none of those options involves forcing another human being to potential terminate something they feel to be a living human. Or sending that human to an overcrowded, under nourished government system of shitty foster homes and instability.
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  7. #67
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    People being equal and laws being fair are nice myths.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  8. #68
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I knew a guy though some friends who got his GF pregnant. She had the child. They tried to stay together for a while, they broke up after a year. He seemed like he just wanted to totally walk away from everything. I can understand walking away from your romantic involvement with her, but look, you have a kid. Fine you hate the mom's guts, deal with it, act like an adult. I just couldn't understand what he was thinking. The way I saw it, he was in the unique position, better than any other person out there (perhaps aside from the mother) to make a serious, real impact in this child's life. His support (or lack there-of) would create a dramatic impact.

    Nobody is forcing you to have sex. Personally, I've tended to screen who I'm having sex with. Do you want a child? If you got pregnant, would you have an abortion? I've also engaged in some risky sexual behavior, and have had girls tell me they were on birth control when they apparently were not. There would always be the chance that if pregnancy did happen she'd change her mind. Fair or not. An agreement should be an agreement, but that's not how things always turn out. Nobody forced me to have sex with her. But if there was a false agreement, that means I was led into my actions under false pretense.

    If there was a real contract in play (technically an oral contract is a real contract, at least it is in business law, but enforcement is something else...), then if no party was under duress at time of agreement than I think it should be binding. Leave it up to individuals to decide if they like the contract or don't.

    At the least *I* think you should pay for the child's needs based on what you can afford. Personally, even though at this stage in my life I don't know if I'd make for a good father (really, can any sane person really say "I'm ready to raise control and take full responsibility for another human"), I'd try anyway. It would probably mean a giant sacrifice in a lot of ways, but I'd still view it as my responsibility. It's easier to say that just sitting here than in real life, I'm sure. To some extent, even if the mother and I ended up not getting along I'd view it as my responsiblity certainly not to care for her in the sense I would a child, but to provide support for her. "Are you well?" "Are you stable?"
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    No, we aren't physically strapping them down onto tables. We'd just be forcing the woman and her child into a life of single motherhood and very likely poverty, unless she aborts. But hey, she has total freedom to make that decision, so life is awesome for her! Good thing we restored balance by giving the man the choice between having a baby with no impact on his body or walking away from a baby with no impact on his body.
    Yeah, I view your position the same way I view shotgun weddings. It's antiquated thinking. We can do better.

    It seems like a lot of men don't understand that an abortion isn't like walking into the doctor and getting a shot. It's way more invasive and with more complications than a vasectomy, for example. There's never going to be a solution that gives everyone 100% equal choices, because biology. You're either giving priority to the mother to decide what happens to her body, or you're giving priority to the father to decide what happens to his money. Either way people will complain and it won't be 100% fair, but I think the alternative would be far, far worse than the status quo.
    Thanks for the biology lesson. I had no idea abortions were more involved than getting a shot.

    There will eventually be a solution that gives everyone 100% equal choices. Artificial wombs. We will eventually have them, maybe not in our lifetimes, but they're coming. Then no woman will need to be burdened with pregnancy ever again.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #70
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I seriously don't know how anyone can think this is a major issue. Have men EVER been punished for their sexual promiscuity in any society?
    I don't know, but I don't see how it's relevant. I thought the goal was equality, not vengeance. Vengeance is a dangerous road to travel.

    This is one of those things where men are going to say, "Hell no it isn't fair!Stupid double standards! " and women are going to say, "Tough shit because EVERYTHING ELSE we put up with isn't fair! You can be stuck with ONE thing!"

    Sex has a 100% chance of putting you at RISK for two things: disease and babies. It's something everyone knows going into it. Accidents happen. But there's different levels of murder in court because there are different kinds of murder. Accidental is one of them. Life isn't this black and white you get to choose everything all the time at any stage thing. You CHOOSE to have sex, you CHOOSE the level of protection prior to it, and you CHOOSE the way you ejaculate (most of the time.. I know, there's horror stories of women doing crazy things.. I get it) in the areas you choose. Sex does not have to be vaginal.

    Seriously, what other options are there for this? Forced abortion? Forced adoption? There is literally NO way of making this balance out perfectly for both sides. And in a culture where men haven't gotten it right in terms of treating women equally in so many other aspects of life, Yeah, I tend to favor the women in this issue. There's another life at stake.

    I know what everyone is saying, "Oh but Kyu, its just a matter of the pay! We don't want to pay!" Don't worry, most dudes don't. You're not REALLY forced to pay. You do to avoid consequences for not. Like sudden garnishing of your wages. Or losing your job because your employer isn't putting up with that drama. There are girls forced to pay for that kid they probably didn't plan on paying for either. And parents who contribute that they weren't expecting to help with. Nothing is free. If you don't pay for that kid with hard earned money, you pay for it with tax dollars later on when you're sending that kid to jail because it grew up in a shitty neighborhood, or to keep maintaining the abortion clinics everyone's trying to shut down.

    There's still no such thing as forced parenting. You are never forced to be a parent. You are forced to help pay for the baby, but I've never known money to be the deciding factor in parenthood. You can avoid paying entirely if you're that rebellious about and face social stigma, and potential jail time (but everyone knows that really never happens.. it costs more to chase down the donor than it does to just raise the kid without the money).. OR you can pay up because you chose that crazy scenario/position/chick/protection level, or you can step up and become a parent. There's still quite a few options for the dudes out there. And none of those options involves forcing another human being to potential terminate something they feel to be a living human. Or sending that human to an overcrowded, under nourished government system of shitty foster homes and instability.
    Forced sterilization with reproductive licenses would be fair. Most people who are having children shouldn't be doing it anyway.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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