User Tag List

First 34567 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 147

  1. #41
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Until men play as much of a role in the will we have a kid conversation as women, I don't think men should be obligated to do anything.

    When two adults consent to sex, they are equally liable for the results.
    I don't think these two statements are compatible at all.

  2. #42
    likes this gromit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    6,652

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Until men play as much of a role in the will we have a kid conversation as women, I don't think men should be obligated to do anything.
    ??
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #43
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    yupp
    Posts
    29,781

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Until men play as much of a role in the will we have a kid conversation as women, I don't think men should be obligated to do anything.

    When two adults consent to sex, they are equally liable for the results.

    Don't act like it's the man's fault for having sex in the first place, it takes two to tango.
    yes you're right the idea that the male sperm FERTILIZES the female egg is just hoax, started by women into swindling men into having to be responsible for kids. we women actually just will ourselves pregnant
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  4. #44
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think these two statements are compatible at all.
    I'm talking about the "should we abort or have the kid" conversation not the "should we have sex conversation".

    Women are equally liable for the sex, but the man's opinion is basically advisory in the "should we abort" conversation.

    She will do what she wants regarding abortion and take the man's opinion into consideration if she wants to.

  5. #45
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm talking about the "should we abort or have the kid" conversation not the "should we have sex conversation".

    Women are equally liable for the sex, but the man's opinion is basically advisory in the "should we abort" conversation.

    She will do what she wants regarding abortion and take the man's opinion into consideration if she wants to.
    Thanks for the clarification. You are correct that the "should we have the kid" conversation is weighted towards the woman, since the process takes place inside her body. This is a biological reality, and fairness is not a concept biology really pays much attention to, or the pregnancy/birth process would be shared between the sexes.

    I agree that it takes two to create a baby, but it only takes one to carry and give birth to it. So yes, there's a period of 9 months where the responsibility and risks (and along with them the choices) are 100% in the mother's hands, since between sex and birth the whole process takes place inside her body. No one can or should be able to force her to undergo an abortion or to carry the child against her will. If the woman choses to carry the pregnancy, once the process is done, it's no longer a transaction between only two people. The man and the woman are not the only two people with interests, so it's not a zero-sum game where the woman "wins" and the man "loses" by having to be financially responsible for the child. The child must be looked after and it has two parents. I don't think there's any legal way to force a man to be a father, but he can be forced to financially support the children he fathers through consensual sex.

  6. #46
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    For the record I feel similarly about this as I do about abortion. I'm not in love with it but I think allowing it is the lesser of two evils. But at the same time, we should be doing our best to reduce and avoid by giving our youth comprehensive sex and family planning education, and widespread access to highly effective birth control for all (my preference would be to instill a societal expectation of "doubling up" on BC- condoms are essential, but not enough if pregnancy would be a disaster).

  7. #47
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,653

    Default

    I tell you what's not fair, how many times I've run out of lives on Candy Crush so far today, no one sending me lives either.

  8. #48
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    FREE
    Enneagram
    594 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ne
    Posts
    42,333

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    If a woman were forced to carry a baby to term she never wanted, she'd be equally fucked over, & her life potentially endangered, depending on certain factors. But yeah.. either way.. when you fuck without discussing the outcomes/what you expect or would want to happen in the event an unwanted child occurs.. then it's safe to assume one or both parties will inevitably be screwed in some way. And no, it won't be fair, no matter what. Because, like I said.. life ain't fair. And you both just made one.

    If forced fatherhood is that frightening a prospect to a man, cryopreservation of semen is available, and subsequently, vasectomies. I've also heard there's a new birth control pill for men in the works. That ought to be interesting. Either way.. though drastic.. there are options available to be extra careful. Communication. Abstinence. Surgical intervention so you CAN'T create kids, no matter what. Given what is at your disposal.. I mean.. at the very least- communication & reflection are free. What's more fair than that? I've got an IUD installed, good for a decade to prevent kids. Was I pleased about having my cervix wrenched open to place a device up there? No, that was pretty painful. But do I have some peace of mind? You bet. Gotta be proactive; focus on what is, & not how things "should be." Reality isn't fair; the universe doesn't give a fuck what you want, & neither may other humans.
    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    No, it's not fair. But like Lex said, life is not fair. There are certain biologically mandated realities that suck but aren't anyone's fault and aren't the result of oppression. For men, it sucks that they aren't in control of the decision to have a child but are still responsible for financially supporting that decision. For women, it sucks that they are the only gender saddled with the responsibility of childbearing and that it has deleterious effects on their career prospects. These are things we just have to live with.

    Apropos of nothing, I had a hearty laugh at this quote from the OP's source:

    In consenting to sex, neither a man nor a woman gives consent to become a parent, just as in consenting to any activity, one does not consent to yield to all the accidental outcomes that might flow from that activity.

    Having a child is an accidental outcome of sex? Yeah, and getting hit by a car is an accidental outcome of running into traffic. It's astonishing to me the degree to which the pervasiveness of birth control and abortion have allowed people to conceptually separate sex and pregnancy to the point where people consider pregnancy a thing that happened to them instead of a thing they did.
    Backing these horses in the race...

    There's so much concern about someone's individual rights that we keep forgetting that there's an easy way to avoid a pregnancy for men and for women. I think more modern birth control, while a positive development overall, has led to our forgetting that we are part of nature and not above it. One must first be as proactive as possible, along with the amount of risk one is willing to take; and then just acknowledge that sex carries with it the possibility of child birth regardless and we have assumed that risk if we proceed. It's almost like we're all pissed off that human beings have reproductive systems that are designed to produce babies. It's just the way it is.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #49
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. You are correct that the "should we have the kid" conversation is weighted towards the woman, since the process takes place inside her body. This is a biological reality, and fairness is not a concept biology really pays much attention to, or the pregnancy/birth process would be shared between the sexes.

    I agree that it takes two to create a baby, but it only takes one to carry and give birth to it. So yes, there's a period of 9 months where the responsibility and risks (and along with them the choices) are 100% in the mother's hands, since between sex and birth the whole process takes place inside her body. No one can or should be able to force her to undergo an abortion or to carry the child against her will. If the woman choses to carry the pregnancy, once the process is done, it's no longer a transaction between only two people. The man and the woman are not the only two people with interests, so it's not a zero-sum game where the woman "wins" and the man "loses" by having to be financially responsible for the child. The child must be looked after and it has two parents. I don't think there's any legal way to force a man to be a father, but he can be forced to financially support the children he fathers through consensual sex.
    It's wrong for men to have no say in whether a child is aborted yet always be financially liable for her decision.

    We're just along for the ride, and it's not very hard to abuse the system. Everyone's heard the tale about the hole poked in the condom, or someone going off birth control without their partners knowledge.

    Men get bent over a barrel and fucked right in the ass by the divorce and paternity laws in this country.

  10. #50

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    It's almost like we're all pissed off that human beings have reproductive systems that are designed to produce babies. It's just the way it is.
    This has been a thought I've had forever. I'm pretty sure it wasn't your intent to be read in this way, but this neatly covers the juncture where I diverge from feminist thinking.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

Similar Threads

  1. Why is life not fair?
    By puzzle in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 06-18-2017, 06:33 PM
  2. [ESFP] What tips would you give to an extremely extroverted ESFP who is forced to be alone
    By prplchknz in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-29-2015, 02:35 PM
  3. [JCF] All is fair in love and war?
    By Hate in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-28-2010, 06:26 AM
  4. What is the Destructive Force of Belief?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-16-2009, 01:42 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO