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  1. #31
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I'm all for people controlling their reproduction, male or female, to date there's only one 100% effective way of doing so that I know of.

  2. #32
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Good points made by @Lexicon

    It's kinda hard to come to a democratic decision between two people, especially when it's about an on/off issue. The fetus is born or it isn't born, hard to compromise there. So, at a 50-50 split between life and death, the law favors life.

    Once a child is born there is a social consensus that you can't just take it away from its parent(s) unless that is clearly in the best interest of the child. Again, in a case of a 50-50 split between keeping the child and giving it free for adoption, the law favors the interest of the child (which can't speak for itself).

    Another social consensus is that you are responsible for the mess you produce. If you can't, society will chip in and support. In case of an accidental pregnancy carried to term where the child is kept by one parent it only seems fair that both carry some responsibility for what they produced. Wanna be absolutely sure? Then use adequate protection!

    A different situation would be a case where one partner is deliberately deceiving their partner in order to cause a pregnancy against that partner's will. But even in such a situation, the law should first and foremost consider the interest of the child rather than that of the two adults.
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  3. #33

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    No, it's not fair. But like Lex said, life is not fair. There are certain biologically mandated realities that suck but aren't anyone's fault and aren't the result of oppression. For men, it sucks that they aren't in control of the decision to have a child but are still responsible for financially supporting that decision. For women, it sucks that they are the only gender saddled with the responsibility of childbearing and that it has deleterious effects on their career prospects. These are things we just have to live with.

    Apropos of nothing, I had a hearty laugh at this quote from the OP's source:

    In consenting to sex, neither a man nor a woman gives consent to become a parent, just as in consenting to any activity, one does not consent to yield to all the accidental outcomes that might flow from that activity.

    Having a child is an accidental outcome of sex? Yeah, and getting hit by a car is an accidental outcome of running into traffic. It's astonishing to me the degree to which the pervasiveness of birth control and abortion have allowed people to conceptually separate sex and pregnancy to the point where people consider pregnancy a thing that happened to them instead of a thing they did.
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  4. #34
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moniker View Post
    By that logic, wouldn't the same be true of women who get abortions or put their children up for adoption? If they weren't raped, of course.
    Ok, this is a very oversimplified and extreme way of saying it. I'll have to think of how to say it better, since I don't really think I mean it completely literally. I do think men who refuse to use condoms (which is really easy, and way easier than anything a woman could do) don't really have room to complain.

    I've been with a a guy who just pulled out, but he knew what he was doing, did it consistently, and was willing to take responsibility if it didn't work.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    I think (and I realize that no one will like this) that if a child is conceived and the partners are not married/living together that the father should have some choice (if you're married and there were no prenuptial terms, then I think the consent is implied). He can opt to pay for half the cost of an abortion (which can be high if you have to travel to a clinic) or pay child support. If the woman chooses not to have an abortion, then that is her decision and she doesn't have a right to expect him to pay for the child he does not want. There should be a time limit on his window of opportunity to make that decision, since women can't have an abortion after a certain time (getting shorter and shorter in America).
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  6. #36
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    So far as it goes I think its less common than forced motherhood, there's more deadbeat dads than there are scheming females.

  7. #37
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Due to technology, this is unfair to some men and has been for the last few decades. I imagine things will be fair for men again within the next few decades.

    It sucks, but unfortunately some things in life are like this. We all do know what causes babies and men can take precautions like providing condoms for themselves and, perhaps, being selective about those they have sex with. (It might be advisable to reconsider relinquishing your swimmers to someone you can't trust with them.)

    Women have dealt with a similar imbalance for tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of years. I think men can probably manage if they put their minds to it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  8. #38
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    No, it's not fair. But like Lex said, life is not fair. There are certain biologically mandated realities that suck but aren't anyone's fault and aren't the result of oppression. For men, it sucks that they aren't in control of the decision to have a child but are still responsible for financially supporting that decision. For women, it sucks that they are the only gender saddled with the responsibility of childbearing and that it has deleterious effects on their career prospects. These are things we just have to live with.

    Apropos of nothing, I had a hearty laugh at this quote from the OP's source:

    In consenting to sex, neither a man nor a woman gives consent to become a parent, just as in consenting to any activity, one does not consent to yield to all the accidental outcomes that might flow from that activity.

    Having a child is an accidental outcome of sex? Yeah, and getting hit by a car is an accidental outcome of running into traffic. It's astonishing to me the degree to which the pervasiveness of birth control and abortion have allowed people to conceptually separate sex and pregnancy to the point where people consider pregnancy a thing that happened to them instead of a thing they did.
    Pretty much all of this, all day.

  9. #39
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    Until men play as much of a role in the will we have a kid conversation as women, I don't think men should be obligated to do anything.

    When two adults consent to sex, they are equally liable for the results.

    Don't act like it's the man's fault for having sex in the first place, it takes two to tango.

  10. #40
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    It is clearly not fair.

    It would continue to not be fair if there were no financial obligation for men who want to opt out, giving the woman a forced choice between single parenthood or abortion, a nontrivial medical procedure that not everyone is ethically ok with, with a considerable amount of stigma and social pressure surrounding it, despite its (semi)legality. Pro-choice means supporting the ability to choose not to abort as well.

    Life isn't fair. IMO, given all the variables involved, it is most fair for everyone, including the child, if both parents are financially responsible for any child that is born.
    -end of thread-

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