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  1. #131
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Abortion is 14 times safer than childbirth in developped countries where child birth is already the safest its ever been, by far.
    And I support it being available and utilized.

    If you have a bias against males and how horrible we are . Say so, but dont try to pass it for sound reasoning. Writing 10 pages about it doesn't make it sounder either.
    Okay, so I hate men because the subject is about forced fatherhood and I say that men have much more control over this situation than they think they do? The subject of the OP sounds whiny and pitiful, that is the way it comes off to me. I am saying that Everyone has a right to control what happens to their body. And, seriously, you are STILL fathering a child even if you don't elect to pay for and support it. The subject is about forced fatherhood. My FIRST post was about how fatherhood is not really about money at all. There are plenty of sperm donors out there that are not paying for children they created and they aren't receiving any real backlash for it. The potential is there, but usually they get lost in the system for years and never end up paying a dime. It isn't worth the stress to the mother and kid to get fathers to pay unwillingly.

    So, I kept it to the biological side of things. Forced fatherhood--as in, helping produce a child at all with your genes regardless of if you wanted a little clone of you running around or not. To which I say, that subject is retarded. Girls get what they want either way because it is their body being affected and changed. No one is forcing men to change their bodies to suit their needs. And no one should cause a woman to do the same. There is None man-hate in my message. I was getting a little sarcastic, but that's not the same as emoting a bunch of feminazi-propaganda all over the thread for some personal agendas or something.

    I support abortion and its utilization because it is conducive to privacy and freedom of health care. It is the same reason I support vasectomies and any other medical procedure out there. They hold no difference to me.

    The problem with abortion is not abortion, its people who fanatically deny it to other people, lie to them about the risk, lobby for legislation endangering real human lives for the profit of cluster of cells and would rather ruin the lives of one or both parents to be to defend their pro-life obsession.
    I have said as much myself. I have recently in my blog posted in length about how lazy the morals of pro-life people are, and the reasons regarding such. I don't see why you think I have a problem with abortion. I do, however, have a problem with forced abortion, which would be the only way to stop a pregnancy from turning into a child that someone is not willing to father biologically speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    And by people you mean ... people from the Dark Ages? It's nice to know that you come from such an enlightened, modern and educated background that'd allow you to be a moral compass to us all
    I was speaking from a personal stance. As in, even if I went through all of those lengths, and a baby somehow magically appeared, I'd be like "Okay. I give up. We're having this." It was a light-hearted comment, not meant to be taken seriously. It was meant to prove that IUDs + a vasectomy were the most modern and advanced technology we have for ensuring pregnancies will not occur to avoid all of this monstrosity of an issue.

    so... in that case women, as grown adults, have to take responsibility for their choice, just like they are free to use contraceptive methods beforehand or afterwards.
    I didn't say women have no responsibility in the matter. That is not the subject at hand. I'm trying to keep to the OP--whether forced fatherhood is fair or not. My point is, if you've done everything you can possibly do to keep a baby from appearing and one appears, no, it is not fair to expect anyone to care for it. Every precaution known to science has been taken. But, minus that, one has to recognize there is a reasonable risk of becoming at least a sperm donor when having sex.. and that to avoid that it would require forcing a woman to choose abortion, which involves forcing someone to change their bodies to suit the needs of someone else. I have an issue with that.

    It isn't that I think it is 'fair' for men to not have ANY say in anything. Men are often left out of important decisions. But the reason behind that is mostly because denying fatherhood requires abortion from a biological standpoint.

    If you're just talking about money, than I don't know what to say. Fatherhood isn't about money. It has a financial aspect. But there are SEVERAL aspects that go into a child. Biology is the, arguably, the biggest one, because it involves tying your money up, your legal aspects, everything.

    Yes, we understand that you hate men. And as a man I would consider neutering these guys, to the last one. but as the conversation does not mention criminal behavior it is assumed you are not referring to criminals but normal consenting sexual encounters. As someone who was part of the military and protected people by shooting at them, I don't think you really are in a position to play the card of moral superiority over a whole gender
    I was considering only normal consenting sexual encounters, they are the most frequent. I'm not trying to play moral superiority. I'm trying to show that men have quite a bit of control over the amount of pregnancies they help create, and that they should exercise those rights because they are being abused when not using them to their fullest.

    I especially like how you don't seem aware of real risks that come with abortion and wildly exaggerate them while you seem completely unaware that vasectomy is the least fully reversible of all reversible birth control procedures. Make men develop allergies against their own sperm etc. but fine, it's only these, terrible, child molesting guys after all.
    There are risks with everything that happens medically. An IUD can puncture a uterus and sterilize the woman, as reversible as it is, at any time. I'm not wildly exaggerating anything. But when people downplay risks, I want to play their game too. "Sure, lets pretend abortions, birth control, and plan B don't hold any risks. Since they hold about the same risk percentages and side effects as a vasectomy, we now get to label a vasectomy as being perfectly fine medically." Either everything has a risk and I am right that there is no way to fully stop a pregnancy from occurring and thus we need to focus on the real issue--forcing people to change their bodies to suit the needs of others that didn't intend for other side effects to happen.

    Seriously, dude, I thought we were friends...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    why do you think is it ok to hold man to that when we do no longer hold woman to that?
    We're not focusing on that because the point isn't about who caused the pregnancy. The point is men have a say in what they do, they have control of the situation, they take calculated risks, and sometimes those probability statistics don't turn out in their favor.. and the ONLY way to stop a biological fatherhood is to abort. This forces a woman to change her body.

    If we're talking financial, then why are we even talking? Really. Money is not the most important aspect we're talking about here. Is everyone really ONLY concerned about how much they have to pay if they become a father? That's what bothers everyone the most? If this is the case, I was really REALLY off on what we were talking about in here. I'm sure we can come to some standard agreement for money... Infact, I have a great solution to it already. But I did NOT think that money was the main concern. Correct me please if I am wrong.
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  2. #132
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Following the convo between @DiscoBiscuit and @kyuuei

    FWIW regarding Plan B, I don't think you have to really qualify as rich to afford it. It's $40 where I used to live. Ask me how I know.

    (Some girls might get sick, but she didn't...)

    I understand that there are a lot of broke people having kids, and I support making it an option for people who can't afford it, but $40? I'm gonna hazard a guess that if you can afford a $20 box of condoms (that surprise! break on you), you can probably afford $40 in pills. I understand that's real money to a lot of people, but it's on par with groceries, not exactly a luxury good.


    Also, sure you're not thinking about RU 486? That's NOT Plan B. That's a chemical abortion pill. That DOES and WILL make you sick. Essentially induces a miscarriage. Throwing up, feeling extremely ill, etc, all common. You WILL miss work. You have to go to a clinic to get it, and to follow up, but there is no physical procedure involved (unless it doesn't work, and then you are required to get an abortion).


    I guess it's sort of selfish, I can see that, considering she's taking more physical risks than I am, but usually as it happened in the moment we both really wanted to have sex. And then did. Sometimes without...anything. On either of our parts. In so far as we're both already screwing up, there's not much else I can do for her except for pay for the costs and be supportive. I'm not going to demand or *force* her to take drugs/have a procedure, but I'd strongly recommend it.

    The only possible exception to this mindset was if there was some sort of pre-coital contract, in which case both parties are free to enter and consent willingly, in which case, she'd agree to whatever was in the contract and I'd expect she'd do it (or I'd be removed from liability if she decided she didn't want to at any point). But...I'm not a lawyer and I don't have that and I'd like to think that at least at this point in my life the girls I'm with aren't insane and I can just talk things out with them. And if I can't, well, there's the risk I took, time to pay up...


    I've considered vasectomies, but I don't think they are always reversible (they aren't necessarily).

    Some facts on vasectomies for everyone's sake:



    I think Disco's basic premise that for most people, a combination of condoms and the pill are pretty reasonable ways to significantly reduce the risk of pregnancy.

    Also, it's important to understand that statistics can be used in confusing and misleading ways.

    This is a good summary of understanding what they mean when they say a condom is 97% effective, or 85%, or whatever.

    AND THE STATISTIC IS MISLEADING!

    In truth, condom failures are most often caused by errors in use, "most notably the failure of couples to use condoms during every act of sexual intercourse."4 It is therefore important to look at the data on typical condom use or user failure.

    Among those couples using condoms as their primary method of contraception, approximately 14 percent will experience an unintended pregnancy during the first year. It is important to remember that they may not have used a condom or may have used one incorrectly during the act of intercourse that resulted in pregnancy.5
    Are you kidding? That's not what I thought that statistic meant. I'd hardly count it as a "condom failure" if they DIDN'T EVEN USE A CONDOM. Additionally, important to note the difference between risk reduction and effectiveness, but that's something else entirely.

    The Rest of the Story: Understanding Condom Effectiveness.
    http://www.thebody.com/content/art2436.html


    (ps if you go to the website you'll find how to properly use a condom, it's pretty basic but people do screw this up - like remember the reservoir tip so your cum doesn't leak out the sides)


    And I've already written enough, maybe there's more I'll point out later.

    Oh, and I will reiterate - a decent number of people end up getting pregnant on the pill alone. Possibly due to user error, but the user error possibility is less tangibly obvious than with something like a condom.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    This is my point entirely. I was really surprised this thread went farther than "Is the OP serious?" It is an absolutely childish sentiment.



    Oh, but 21%, we're not thinking about men's emotions concerning their own financial stability and their potential grief for having brought a baby into the world, nor are we considering their emotional burden if they are forced to interact with a child they once wanted dead. We're stopping all of these amazing men from being doctors, lawyers, nurses, engineers, and all the other careers they were GOING to contribute to the world, I swear, before they knocked up some lady. I mean, we're really ruining their lives with our inconvenient sex.

    Apparently money is a very, very big deal to many men on this forum. And it outweighs many other concepts and principles both in themselves and others.
    The sense of entitlement is incredible. It's a form of sexism that's actually cropped up pretty strongly since feminism...I actually consider it "the unintended consequence of feminism"...Perma-Boys.

    Men who think they deserve empty, no-strings-attached sex with ZERO consequences, and HOW DARE ANYONE HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE IN ANY WAY...emotionally, finanically, even if a child is produced.

    I'm consistently baffled by the men who think they can have sex without a condom, who expect a woman to just be on the pill, and damn that bitch if she said she was on the pill and got pregnant anyway (even though he didn't bring condoms or have a vasectomy, or in some cases even pushed for unprotected sex...hello...AIDS??!!)

    It's an interesting form of sexism that has cropped up, because there used to be square social responsibility placed upon fathers, unless the mother was a prostitute, in most cases.

    You know there's a practical reason why women either demanded marriage (or at least engagement) or outright payment for sex in the past.

    I'm just sayin.

  4. #134
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    right, i think the whole principle here is the IF statement:


    basically the article is making assumptions about society that aren't even close to being applicable to your own.
    If we're debating principles alone, then, sure, no one should be forced into being a parent. It would be great if the state can step in to give moms in need proper aid -- perhaps starting with something like this.

    The real world is much less rosy though. I'm pretty sure that traces of the inequality seen in my country are still present in the West. And, yes, usually it's the low-income women (and their children) that get affected the most.

    In a hundred years, I'm sure the OP article will be of real relevance -- just not right now yet. But, again, in a hundred years, maybe the Male Birth Control Pill will have become available. That will make everyone's life a lot easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Oh, and I will reiterate - a decent number of people end up getting pregnant on the pill alone. Possibly due to user error, but the user error possibility is less tangibly obvious than with something like a condom.
    Yeah, for the pill to be fully effective, it must be taken at approximately the same time every day. Right now the responsibility rests solely on the woman pulling this off every single day, which is why so many people fail and there are so many pill babies around.

    I think the problem with the whole concept of birth control right now is that men currently have very little control over their own reproduction, except for the condom, which, let's face it, many men refuse to use once they are in a relationship.
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  5. #135
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Look. We're talking constantly about contraceptives.

    The point is NOT about contraceptives and how effective they are. The conversation moved to that because it is a factor in the argument the guys supporting this idea are making. That contraceptives are enough. My point is that, clearly it is not, because we are still having unwanted pregnancies. Unwanted by one or both partners, it doesn't matter. If they were effective, they would eliminate them, not just diminish them. Using them as a back bone for things is NOT going to change the fact that you're asking a woman to change her physical state for YOUR convenience.

    Again, my point was not to talk about money. It was to talk about biological fatherhood--as in regardless of what the woman does with the born baby. Because the only way you stop being a sperm donor is when the fetus is aborted. Otherwise, it lives.. and there's all sorts of complications after that, and way too many gray areas. My point was to address the ROOT cause--the fact that there is no 100% way of ensuring no child will be born without complete consent from both sides. And because there isn't, common sense precautions have to be in place (i.e. BC in all forms) and calculated risks are taken.. but the result could still end up being a child even with all of that. And men really are at the mercy of women after that happens because otherwise you force a woman to change her physical state of body for your convenience. And no one is making men do that.

    That was all I was saying. The entire time.
    There are risks with everything. Nothing is 100%. Most of it is deemed perfectly safe and affordable--BECAUSE IT IS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    FWIW regarding Plan B, I don't think you have to really qualify as rich to afford it. It's $40 where I used to live. Ask me how I know.
    We're entertaining the idea of getting a *state ID* being a BIG deal money wise for people. $10-70 is what is ranged for the plan B pill on official websites, and I've never seen it below $50. Having $40-50 to drop RIGHT then when it is not expected is not always feasible. Now, the website recommends people having a supply of it on hand for immediate use. But, again, that requires either putting BC directly on the WOMAN again (leaving men out of any sort of control of the situation) or it requires a steady partner (i.e. someone with a one night stand who shows up with it already (vs having a condom only) is fucking creepy socially.)

    Also, sure you're not thinking about RU 486? That's NOT Plan B. That's a chemical abortion pill. That DOES and WILL make you sick. Essentially induces a miscarriage. Throwing up, feeling extremely ill, etc, all common. You WILL miss work. You have to go to a clinic to get it, and to follow up, but there is no physical procedure involved (unless it doesn't work, and then you are required to get an abortion).
    Lifted directly from webmd, its posted in several formats.
    Plan B or Plan B One-Step is considered safe for most women. You should not take it if you are pregnant; at this time, there is limited data on the safety of taking Plan B or Plan B One-Step while pregnant.

    Potential side effects of Plan B or Plan B One-Step include:

    nausea
    abdominal pain
    fatigue
    headache
    menstrual changes
    dizziness
    breast tenderness
    vomiting
    diarrhea
    And, on top of that, after initial symptoms go away you can deal with some really annoying side effects for potentially weeks.

    Eating small, frequent meals over 24 hours may also help.

    With Plan B or Plan B One-Step, you may also have some unexpected bleeding. It should go away by the time of your next period.
    My point is. There are side effects to EVERYTHING. So guys complaining about vasectomies are complaining about--well--what every girl complains about with all the BC that's force fed down their throats. Women are just socially not allowed to be lazy about birth control the way men are. And they aren't allowed because they have more to risk. When I put more chips into a jar than the other people, I expect them to not have as much of a say in what happens to that jar as I do. To me, that's fair, and normal, and the way it has always been.

    I've considered vasectomies, but I don't think they are always reversible (they aren't necessarily).
    Not everything is. It's a minority in that field though. My point in this discussion is that we cannot stop thinking about the minority to give way to the majority. My whole sarcastic point in bringing up how safe and sound vasectomies are is that that is the REAL way men come at women when it comes to BC and pregnancies and abortion. Everything is narrow minded without any consideration taken into every single aspect and circumstance. The minority is excluded based on the majority.

    I think Disco's basic premise that for most people, a combination of condoms and the pill are pretty reasonable ways to significantly reduce the risk of pregnancy.
    Disco's preference was that significant reduction and a majority is enough to ignore the minority and make blanket rulings. My point was that it is not. That every single person counts in something like this. It is not about birth control at all--and it never was. It is a factor that I support in the form of a type of control men have over this situation... but not the main aspect of discussion. There is no alternative to forced fatherhood without forced abortion. Which I find to be wrong.

    No one has still mentioned if MONEY is the main concern. I really, really hope that it is not based on the lack of response.. but the current posts in the thread and the sheer amount of supporters of the OP + mentions of financial means leads me to believe otherwise.
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  6. #136
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    FWIW I've had a fair amount of unprotected sex. In basically every case she didn't object at all. I've never *refused* to wear a condom...

    I suppose some people do.

    Doesn't make it less stupid, but I still don't have kids.



    also I'm going to jump in 21 before someone says 'you can have a vasectomy or ya know, not have sex. '

    there, you've been informed.

    Dumb as I am, if I have a kid I'm supporting it. If you're gonna be dumb...you gotta be tough.


    It's pretty stupid that I'd pick up the pieces afterward instead of just being responsible from the start, but that's life sometimes.

    (next girl I'm using a condom)
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  7. #137
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    @kyuuei

    I'm not trying to obsfucate your points. If the ultimate concept here is 'well it should have been 99% effective but it wasn't - too bad lady" (I'm not sure if it is, but if it is) then I think that's BS. Calculated risk is still a risk. IMO a shared risk.

    That's that.


    (that said, since birth control keeps being brought up I might as well clarify where I have data and experience to back it up. speaking of which re: plan b sickness yeah it can make you sick, perhaps very sick though I'm guessing not as often, I mentioned ru 486 because that will make you extremely sick. just clarification, not refutation.)

    (as stated I realize $100 isn't affordable for everyone but I support sliding scale costs like those at planned parenthood or even free)

    (not to ignore the rest of what you're saying, but those seem like the main points unless you want me to respond to something else specifically)
    Last edited by Bamboo; 07-14-2013 at 01:34 PM. Reason: those "seem like" the main points instead of those "are" the main points...they 'are' *my* main points
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  8. #138
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    @Bamboo I just want to clarify that I have nothing against the views of the majority of the male posters I've read in this thread. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that in reality things are still pretty tough for women regarding sexuality and motherhood. All I need is for guys to realize this and be supportive, e.g. take a more active role in discussing and managing contraceptives, try to use condoms as much as possible instead of expecting women to go to Plan B (which can have some nasty side effects and should only be used in real emergencies). I think most guys are doing this already, and that's all I'm asking. What irked me was the fact that some people were complaining about how unfair and inconvenient it is for them that the decision whether to abort lies with women, which reflects a total lack of sympathy for their partner, which is quite disturbing.


    ...

    The answer, maybe, is a socialist state, where people are given welfare money for having a baby, regardless of whether the father wants to pay for it or not. But, well, that's already happening in some places, and it seems the unintended side effect is that quite a few people simply stop working and start producing babies -- so perhaps it is really about money after all...
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  9. #139
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    @Bamboo I just want to clarify that I have nothing against the views of the majority of the male posters I've read in this thread. I guess what I'm trying to get across is that in reality things are still pretty tough for women regarding sexuality and motherhood. All I need is for guys to realize this and be supportive, e.g. take a more active role in discussing and managing contraceptives, try to use condoms as much as possible instead of expecting women to go to Plan B (which can have some nasty side effects and should only be used in real emergencies). I think most guys are doing this already, and that's all I'm asking. What irked me was the fact that some people were complaining about how unfair and inconvenient it is for them that the decision whether to abort lies with women, which reflects a total lack of sympathy for their partner, which is quite disturbing.
    Yeah, that's fair. I didn't think you were taking issue really. But clarification is good.

    In terms of 'expecting' someone to do x, y, or z well that can take on two meanings. The first is a rather authoritarian way that indicates "you will do this (because I say so)" but the second just means - "you don't seem like you want to have kids, and we're in this together but really it's all in your body and there's nothing I can actually do here, so I expect you'll want to do something about it."

    I agree that a total lack of sympathy for your partner seems a little screwed up.

    Taking a more active role is a good thing, yeah, I should do that, I think so should other guys. Though I'll note that in more than one instance the girls I've been with basically were like "condoms? nah... they don't feel good, go ahead, it'll be cool" which is...bad (and I went along with it), but I'd point out that high risk behavior runs both ways and it's not just guys putting girls into these positions- they can put themselves there too.

    Yes, Plan B should in fact be "plan b".



    Re: the money issue.

    Yeah, it's depressing if guys are really that upset that, god forbid, you have to pay to support for the human life you created. That's the least you can do. At least try and support their emotional well being. Money isn't everything. But it's not nothing either.

    In terms of body issues, I can understand why a girl wouldn't want to take hormonal birth control. It's pretty messed up. I actually had this conversation in brief a couple weeks ago. There are some biological differences, but I'd feel very uncomfortable about putting hormones into my body. If there is a hormonal option, it probably WILL be for girls, because of how they have a cycle - but it's still weird. And they can make it a local hormone instead of a whole body one.

    And I can definitely understand why they wouldn't want to be surgically sterilized. That's a big deal.

    Vasectomies make me uncomfortable because what if I do want kids? If they come up with a way of plugging that's removable, well, just reading the procedure notes makes me a little uncomfortable (you're cutting my ....?!) but I'd probably do that.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  10. #140
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    No in the case of a man being raped or having his semen stolen by a wild turkey baster.

    Otherwise yes get real. What 12 year old doesn't know where babies come from. Use protection or keep it in your pants, stop trying to fuck people without condoms unless you're in a relationship and know for a fact birth control is present.

    It's his responsibilities as much as hers. Grow up.
    Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Apparently money is a very, very big deal to many men on this forum. And it outweighs many other concepts and principles both in themselves and others.
    Now here's where I have a problem with a lot of what's being said here. My interpretation of this comment is that you're painting any man who doesn't agree with you as a selfish mercenary. This is patently unfair. What a number of men have said here with regard to the issue of unfairness isn't that they think that men shouldn't be responsible. It's that in today's society, there's a vast difference between responsibility vs. choice for men and women. I said above that I agreed 100% with Marmotini that responsibility for conceiving a child is as much a man's responsibility as a woman's, and I meant it. The thing is... that one conception has occurred, a man's choice on what he would like to happen next is completely irrelevant, irrespective of the consequences of parenthood. A woman still has options. Yes, those options are not simple, and may be painful on physical, emotional, financial, social, etc. levels. But it's undeniable that she has those options - and she *should* have those options.

    But if a conception is accidental (in the minds of both the man and the woman), and a woman doesn't feel ready, be it for whatever reason - financial, maturity, professional, etc. to be a parent, she can choose to have an abortion, give the child up for adoption, etc. The man - legally -- can't. He's obligated to do whatever she wishes, regardless of how it will affect his life. She can change her mind, for any reason. He can't. His ability to make decisions on the matter is over. But hers isn't. Granted -- the immediate consequences of a pregnancy are by no means equal - which is *why* her opinion matters, and his is basically inconsequential.

    The issue in many men's minds (as I read it here) is that the difference between the responsibility for conception (which I think we've agreed is equal) and the decisions that take place after a conception (which is 100% in the woman's control) is not "fair". While the consequences are almost certainly of greater magnitude for her, the woman, post-conception, can do what she thinks is best for her own life. The man, who has lesser (but still does have very large) consequences cannot. In this respect, his complete lack of choice is absolutely not "fair". But hey, life isn't fair, and with respect to this issue (at least in today's society, given the relative lack of social support to single parents), the legal situation as it is now is probably as good as it's going to get.

    What it really means is that men should be even more careful about with whom and under what circumstances (condom, etc.) they have sex than women should, as it's is the *only* point at which they have any control over the potential consequences of pregnancy.
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