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  1. #121
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    The world has change and now we have paternity testing.

    And a surprising number of men have discovered that the child they are providing for is not their own.

    This is a surprise because we have thought that men were more promiscuous than women. But paternity testing of DNA shows we are more equal than we thought.
    Paternity testing, in the US at least, generally works the other way around: unmarried men could deny a child was theirs and walk away. Now it can be proven that the child is theirs and this is what is making things 'unfair' for men more than any other technological advance, IMO.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #122
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    @Mane I know where you're coming from on principle and I agree that in an ideal world everything should be a choice. I think @cafe made a very good point though: the law was made to protect women. In reality, most women who benefit from this law tend to be those with low income who really need that child support money, and the men who impregnated them in the first place tend to be those who would remorselessly walk away if they could to avoid the financial responsibility. Of course, I'm generalizing here, but that tends to be what happens in real life, so I'm in full support of this particular law.

    I personally think women who are slightly better-off will be less likely to force her partner to pay child support, because she has the ability to support herself and her child, if she chooses to have it. If I accidentally get pregnant and choose not to abort, I won't be asking a dime off my boyfriend if he doesn't want the child. But that is because I have a job and a place to live and a support system to help take care of the baby. The real question here might not be what is fair or not fair to women and men, but how we can make sure that women have the means to be financially independent.

    The economic structure in the modern world is still very much in favor of men. It's getting better, but still in real life even with married couples it is still expected that the man be the bread-winner and the woman the home-maker. Women are also still somewhat discriminated against, especially in lower-wage jobs, simply because there is a possibility that they are going to get pregnant and have children. Financially, it's already an unfair world for women to live in, so I think the law just attempts to even that out a bit.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    the law was made to protect women.
    protected from? their own choice...
    by means of? subjugating another regardless of choice.

    i honestly don't know how come more women don't find the very idea offensive: it's basically declaring that women aren't mature enough to be accountable for their own choices and be treated as adults... where does that leave you?

  4. #124
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I actually don't think it's meant to protect women. It's meant to protect the children.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I actually don't think it's meant to protect women. It's meant to protect the children.
    ding ding ding! we have a winner! all passengers sit tight because we might finally be getting out of Bullshit Bermuda.

  6. #126
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure I said that pretty early on, though.

  7. #127
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I actually don't think it's meant to protect women. It's meant to protect the children.
    And to protect society from those children.

    70% of all children with a single parent* – 16.9 million – live in low-income (less than twice the poverty line for their family size) families. Around 70% of those families are headed by women.

    80% of those mothers are employed (50% full-time, 30% part-time) but a decent chunk of them still qualify for some kind of government assistance, even when the fathers pays support.

    Edit: *In the US.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  8. #128
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
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    I don't know -- I might be coming from a different kind of context here. I live in a third world country where in rural areas there is still blatant misogyny, where girls are forced to drop out of schools to become field labor, while boys mostly get to continue their education, paid for by their sisters' labor. If you get pregnant, abortion is not legal, but you can go to seedy underground clinics and hope you don't die in the process, which might still be better than carrying the baby to term and suffer the shame you bring to the family for being a slut. The family might be able to force the boy to marry you, but it is very likely that he will soon leave you for a younger virgin girl, who also has no education. Most of the time they lose their virginity at thirteen, and have no idea about protection.

    With no education, we can't really start talking about choice, really.

    If we're talking about the educated middle and upper class -- sure, I'm pro-choice. Not in every situation is choice a valid criterion though.
    4w5 sp/sx EII

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    I don't know -- I might be coming from a different kind of context here. I live in a third world country where in rural areas there is still blatant misogyny, where girls are forced to drop out of schools to become field labor, while boys mostly get to continue their education, paid for by their sisters' labor. If you get pregnant, abortion is not legal, but you can go to seedy underground clinics and hope you don't die in the process, which might still be better than carrying the baby to term and suffer the shame you bring to the family for being a slut. The family might be able to force the boy to marry you, but it is very likely that he will soon leave you for a younger virgin girl, who also has no education. Most of the time they lose their virginity at thirteen, and have no idea about protection.

    With no education, we can't really start talking about choice, really.

    If we're talking about the educated middle and upper class -- sure, I'm pro-choice. Not in every situation is choice a valid criterion though.
    right, i think the whole principle here is the IF statement:


    basically the article is making assumptions about society that aren't even close to being applicable to your own.

  10. #130
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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