User Tag List

First 21011121314 Last

Results 111 to 120 of 147

  1. #111
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6
    Posts
    24,060

    Default

    BTW vasectomies aren't 100% effective. I know a couple of couples with post-vasectomy babies (and no, I don't believe the mom cheated- I know some post-tubal babies too and nobody gives anybody the third degree over those).

  2. #112
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The reason I didn't mention it, and said that it would probably be the woman to have to new noninvasive procedure re: reproductive status is that historically, and among the common understanding of many, that contraception is on the man as far as providing condoms are concerned. Of all the methods of contraception mentioned thus far (besides vasectomies which are more invasive than the future hypothetical procedure I envision) only condoms directly involve the man doing something to himself. ... The kind of cultural expectations that currently lead to the assumption that the girl has contraception covered, change slowly if at all. Is that right? No, but like you've said in other threads that just how the world works.
    I'm not saying anything *has* to change. The motivations for this thread are that it is unfair for men to have to deal with all the burden of pregnancies they don't want. My points are that 1. You have far more control than you think you do about the situation. and 2. It doesn't really matter what you think. No one is going to tell anyone how to treat their body because we are a nation of privacy (well, theoretically..) and free will.

    To your point about it not being fair unless a man undergoes medical procedure that (while reversible) is intended to be a permanent solution to pregnancy, that's ridiculous. Unless you think its reasonable to bank a shitload of sperm at a sperm bank, then at the age of say 23 have a vasectomy and go about his business. That's a little more of a burden than condoms or the pill or plan b etc...
    You don't even need a sperm bank, crazy. Vasectomies don't stop you from creating sperm, just from adding it to pre-cum and ejaculation. It might be wise to have some at a sperm bank juuust in case you are really concerned about your future childly-ness, but I've never heard of it being a necessity to have children with a vasectomy.

    Even if we take your scenario, it is no more burdensome than buying the pill + plan B + condoms right now. It's an extra layer of defense against something that you admit can change a guy's entire life. I'll take that any day.

    Also, I understand (on a logical level) what your saying about probability, but I still dont find it compelling. Nothing works 100%. That lack of 100% certainty does nothing to mitigate the value of those contraceptive methods, or the fact that their implementation has drastically changed the way men and women interact over the last 60 years.
    I'm not mitigating the effectiveness of contraceptives. I promote them with gusto. I am saying that there is risk in all you do--and there is control in all you do. Saying something is unfair when you have as much control as you really do is just nonsense. I'm not the one arguing how this is unfair. I don't think it is at all, I think everything is pretty fine the way it is overall. You're the one wanting the status quo to change. In which case, the change needs to be as effective as possible--meaning we're getting as close to 100% as possible. You have every resource and all the cash you'll never need available to you to protect yourself from an unwanted pregnancy. And yet, there's still a concern about how nasty these evil women are that are not taking your feelings into consideration.

    The paths of least resistance here, with the least invasiveness, are condoms, the pill, nuva ring etc...
    I don't know if you noticed, but the pills are not non-invasive. From a surgical standpoint, maybe, but it affects everything in your body--your hormones, lifestyle (you have to adjust sometimes the way you eat, use medicines for your skin, etc.), all of that is effected. And while you mean resistance in the sense of how easy it is.. I mean resistance as in compliance. It's easy for a couple drunk people to forget a condom. It's really easy to forget a pill for a day--or to have their effectiveness diminish from antibiotics.

    IUDs and vasectomies require zero thought after the initial procedure and discomfort period, and last 10 years (as in, you have about 10 years to decide to reverse a vasectomy or not, and non-hormonal IUDs are 10 years in length). They will offer the most compliance by users because they do not require daily thought, deliberate actions over time, nor do they require excess income at all times of the year. It is why I think they are the least resistant *to your cause.* For mine, which is "suck it up, it's fine the way it is guys", I would say you are right, condoms and nuva ring and pills are totally fine.

    Forced fatherhood isn't fair because he has no way of consenting to a life changing occurrence, that, while stemming from a common act (sex), is preventable enough (in light of medical advances) that his participation can't reasonably be understood to confer tacit acceptance of pregnancy. I feel like that sentence should be worded better, but I was tired of trying to get it right.
    I know what you're saying. and I am saying that this part "is preventable enough" is not accurate. It is not 100% preventable, no matter what. I keep saying vasectomies are 100%.. but what I mean by that is, they're the most reliable. They STILL aren't 100%, and that is PHYSICALLY going in and snipping the direct line of supply. Anything else is drastically inferior.

    Between condoms, the pill, plan b, and other non-medical procedure forms of contraception (assuming proper use) one can move forward with the knowledge that pregnancy is highly unlikely. That has been my experience thus far, and I'm happy to move forward knowing that there is a very small chance of pregnancy occurring. I still swim in the ocean even though I know there are sharks.
    If you have access to, and properly use, all of them. Not all guys do. Not all girls do. You have control over who you sleep with (men way more so than women considering the staggered statistics of rape), what kind of contraception you elect to use, and how many *layers* of protection you use. There are multiple. If you fail to use them all, then you are certainly not exercising your rights to their fullest. In which case, you're pretty much asking for someone to come in and take advantage of that fact, and really, who cares. You didn't, because you didn't even make a decent effort. They didn't care that you made a decent effort. But just like they can't go make you get a vasectomy to stop this from happening again, you can't make a girl get an abortion. No one can tell you what to do to your body. No one. Although, more frequently than not, men forget about that when dealing with women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    BTW vasectomies aren't 100% effective. I know a couple of couples with post-vasectomy babies (and no, I don't believe the mom cheated- I know some post-tubal babies too and nobody gives anybody the third degree over those).
    Yeah, worded poorly on my part. My point was, you need condoms to prevent STDs as those are the most effective tools for that.. But even without it. + a vasectomy. + a girl having an IUD or an essure. It would damn near have to be a second coming to create a baby under all of those conditions at once. I mean.. I don't know if even I could deny a baby coming into existence if I used a condom with a dude that was snipped + my IUD. And I'm probably more supportive of abortions than people would ever feel is morally right.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  3. #113
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    ...
    That all seems mostly reasonable.

    Looks like most of our disagreement comes (as usual) from our personal POV's that we can no more get away from than our eye color.

  4. #114
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    You're assuming everyone feels the same about abortion. Literally every piece of legislature and law ever made on the subject would prove that wrong.



    If you order a chicken and receive a turkey, you can bring it back to the store. You can get a refund. It is a service being offered to you. Sex is not a service offered to guys to order off of a menu. Nor is abortion a menu option. There are other circumstances--risks of death and hemorrhaging, and sterilization, that are just as dangerous as pregnancy itself--the physical changes it does to a woman's body. The fact that NOT EVERYONE thinks that abortion is a simple medical procedure. There are a ton of more complex factors there. You don't have to eat the chicken, no harm no foul, only the chicken suffers. In your analogy, you're saying "You're the chicken. So I really don't give a fuck what you're suffering about."



    There are plenty of men who would never stand for an abortion, and who could not mentally handle the stressors AS A MAN. More less actually carrying a baby to term. Not everyone feels the way you do.



    Hah. Not even a chance to let me answer before you know mine, is it? And you still conveniently forget that *your* life is not at risk when you decide to have this baby, where as mine is. Pregnancy is still a risky business even in this modern day and age. So is abortion. I know a woman who has carried a baby to term because the guy was in knots at the thought of losing a life he created. It does not happen often--mostly because there aren't many genders in the reverse role--but it does happen. It is not about what I would personally do. It is about making the best option available for everyone.



    If contraception were 100%, I'd agree with you there. But nothing is 100% anymore. Condoms every time used properly + IUD + the woman following her cycle schedule is absolutely going to stop a pregnancy sans a miracle. But sex is not that mechanical for everyone. I doubt you checked a girl's cycle schedule before you had sex with her. I doubt you asked her extensive questions about what sort of birth control she used, how often she missed pills, what time of day she normally took them... And every single factor makes contraception lose its percentages.



    Oh sure. Let's throw plan B into the mix. How many dudes offer that to their girls? How selfish is that? "Hey, I know I took no more precautions than you did, but you better get on that just in case. It's $50, and I gotta go." That's not even counting the list of side-effects plan B causes--and there are plenty of situations where women cannot be staying home while those side effects happen.

    Also, it is not 100% effective. It is a high percentage.. but it is not 100% either. And if it doesn't work, you risk health risks far worse than the side effects, AND a fucked up pregnancy. So, it isn't just this magic bullet to cure all of everyone's problems. You go pay $50 a pop, be sick for three days, and see how long it takes you to become a nun.



    It has ways of turning it off. They just are risky and change the body. I don't know why you said "probably female" when men's reproductive structures are WAY easier and less invasive medically to access. There is very low and few risks for males to get 'fixed' than there are for females. And men have vasectomy options. That are reversible. Women do not. You, as a dude, can fix ALL of this and never worry about it in the time it takes you to grab lunch during work. But you won't. But you'll complain that someone else isn't willing to do the same. Go through a medical procedure that makes them uncomfortable and will probably change their body and perhaps mental stance as well.
    Abortion is 14 times safer than childbirth in developped countries where child birth is already the safest its ever been, by far.

    If you have a bias against males and how horrible we are . Say so, but dont try to pass it for sound reasoning. Writing 10 pages about it doesn't make it sounder either.

    The problem with abortion is not abortion, its people who fanatically deny it to other people, lie to them about the risk, lobby for legislation endangering real human lives for the profit of cluster of cells and would rather ruin the lives of one or both parents to be to defend their pro-life obsession.

    The problem with abortion is when morons push their silly ideologies on the general population and force people who want abortions to use sub-standard methods, making it shameful or illegal for women to have the ownership of their body modern medecine allows . The problem is people shaming women who want an abortion into using alternative methods even when real doctors are available.

    Thats the g£%%€€{ problem with abortion.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #115
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I don't know if even I could deny a baby coming into existence if I used a condom with a dude that was snipped + my IUD. And I'm probably more supportive of abortions than people would ever feel is morally right.
    And by people you mean ... people from the Dark Ages? It's nice to know that you come from such an enlightened, modern and educated background that'd allow you to be a moral compass to us all

    you can't make a girl get an abortion. No one can tell you what to do to your body. No one.
    so... in that case women, as grown adults, have to take responsibility for their choice, just like they are free to use contraceptive methods beforehand or afterwards.

    You have control over who you sleep with (men way more so than women considering the staggered statistics of rape)
    Yes, we understand that you hate men. And as a man I would consider neutering these guys, to the last one. but as the conversation does not mention criminal behavior it is assumed you are not referring to criminals but normal consenting sexual encounters. As someone who was part of the military and protected people by shooting at them, I don't think you really are in a position to play the card of moral superiority over a whole gender

    I especially like how you don't seem aware of real risks that come with abortion and wildly exaggerate them while you seem completely unaware that vasectomy is the least fully reversible of all reversible birth control procedures. Make men develop allergies against their own sperm etc. but fine, it's only these, terrible, child molesting guys after all.

    I think what you need is a psychologist about apparently unresolved issues, not a thread about abortion.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  6. #116
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    738
    Socionics
    ILE None
    Posts
    7,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    You're assuming everyone feels the same about abortion. Literally every piece of legislature and law ever made on the subject would prove that wrong.
    Sure. Show me every piece of legislation then. as you seem to have passed the bar in over 200 countries.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  7. #117
    Society
    Guest

    Default

    holy shit why is everyone missing the very same points blatantly pointed out by the article?

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    If men don't want to be fathers they shouldn't have sex. Or they can use condoms more often. That's my opinion, anyway.
    why do you think is it ok to hold man to that when we do no longer hold woman to that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I think if one parent decides they don't want responsibility for the kid, but the other does, the 1st party is kinda fucked (at least financially)
    again, no: if the mother doesn't want to take responsibility for the kid she can chose to not have him, even if she chose to have sex, its her choice.the very point of the article is that man don't have the same choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    If a mom doesn't want her child, but the dad does, he's allowed to take custody- and he's allowed to file for child support from the mother.
    no, he isn't, because she's allowed to abort before becoming a mom, which is her right, but... also means that he doesn't get to keep custody of a dead fetus.

    also, if not the article, why not read your own point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    If a woman were forced to carry a baby to term she never wanted, she'd be equally fucked over
    exactly - it would be equally unfair if a woman would be forced to carry a baby to term. in modern society she is not forced to do so. which means it is not equally unfair, it is unfair to one side but not the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    I've also heard there's a new birth control pill for men in the works. That ought to be interesting. Either way.. though drastic.. there are options available to be extra careful. Communication. Abstinence. Surgical intervention so you CAN'T create kids, no matter what. Given what is at your disposal.. I mean.. at the very least- communication & reflection are free. What's more fair than that?
    those are all well and good ideas. but to answer your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    What's more fair than that?
    keeping one side accountable to those standard of doing so but not the other. which is exactly what society is doing, a.k.a. this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Female doesn't want child, male wants child. Female gets what she wants. The male doesn't, but he has no future responsibility.
    Female wants child, male doesn't want child. Female gets what she wants. The male doesn't and he has more than a decade of future responsibility.
    which is exactly what the article was pointing out.... is there no obvious contrast there?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
    It just makes sense to have a plan/discussion/whatever in place before you have sex. Prevention, course of action with accidental conception, etc. Know what you want, what your partner wants and be prepared to take care of business either way.
    its not that uncommon for women to change their minds once it actually happens: "i felt someone growing inside of me / i saw him in the ultrasound / etc' + and i fell inlove" is something i've heard repeatedly, which is fine - she's allowed to, its her choice to make. he doesn't get that choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    But to assume just because he accidentally conceived offspring means everyone else should clean up his mess by default is kind of messed up (not that you explicitly stated that, either).
    again, no: the expectation is that the person making the choice is the person responsible for the child. you can go back in circles and argue that it was his choice to have sex, and again you'd be missing the very point of the article you're addressing:
    with abortions, day after pills and so on being an accepted procedure, the choice of sex and reproduction is divorced for woman while not being divorced for man. society is acknowledging that choosing to have sex isn't the same as choosing to bare a child, but it is only doing so for women.

    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    agreed. i know too many mothers who haven't gotten a dime out of the father of their children to really see this as that serious of an issue.. and a lot of those fathers were willing to begin with.
    giving you enough credit to assume that you read the article and that by willing fathers you mean willing to be fathers and not just willing to have sex, then i'll point out that the article addresses this very issue as well - that a willing father should be accountable for the child.

    this isn't about cases where the man were married or wanted to raise the child - in such cases ofcourse you should have be responsible, since you consciously took the responsibility (just like the mother did), and yes, its not a responsibility you can shake off. in fact if anyone read it to the end (it wasn't that long), one of the most important issues addressed by this article which has being so far ignored, is that the consenting father should have the same responsibilities and rights - meaning that if you raised a child and embraced him as your own he is your child (which includes willing stepparents).

    the problem isn't when the father gave consent to be a father (which again, is no longer the same as consent to have sex), its when he didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Due to technology, this is unfair to some men and has been for the last few decades. I imagine things will be fair for men again within the next few decades.
    but that doesn't quite resolve the issue does it? if a woman doesn't take the pill we don't keep her liable regardless of her will, which is what we are doing for men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    You're either giving priority to the mother to decide what happens to her body, or you're giving priority to the father to decide what happens to his money.
    it seems to me like a false dichotomy: how is having the consequences of a father's willingness impact your economical reality any less freedom to control your body? it seems like its less freedom to control his body.

    you're talking about the physical ramifications in one direction, which is true some of the time, but let's look at a very common scenario in our society: two young pre-college idiots get pregnant, she wants it, he doesn't. now that he is not likely to ever afford taking out a student loan, guess what he is most likely to do with his life? generally speaking, while service industries take more women, physical labor jobs take more men - loading, factory work, construction, guard/policing, those are his likely possibilities, and they are going to be quite harmful for his health, in fact quite a few of the jobs he might have to take in order to pay child support are going to involve actual risk for his life. no, this isn't always the case, but the same is applicable to the health risks involved for woman, or for that matter the day after pill.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Seriously, what other options are there for this? Forced abortion? Forced adoption?
    for god's sake, NO, the alternative is right there:
    neither side is forced to do anything they don't want too.

    being forced to have a choice between having an abortion and raising a kid (that you are having by your own exclusive intent) with your own exclusive means, is not the same as forced abortion, rather it is simply putting the consequence behind the choice, something that society and any ethical system worth a dime deems entirely normal.

    Quote Originally Posted by 21% View Post
    - If her partner does not want a baby, the woman is screwed either way: you can have and raise the baby yourself (single mom stigma), you can have an abortion (baby killer stigma), you can give it up for adoption (bad mom stigma). No matter what you do, you are screwed.
    what a wonderful world to be a man in, isn't it? i mean, its not like his choice is to try to be a father to a child he didn't want (reluctant single dad stigma), he can chose to just pay child support and not have any connection (bad dad stigma), or he can try to dodge the bills (deadbeat father stigma)

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    You're assuming everyone feels the same about abortion. Literally every piece of legislature and law ever made on the subject would prove that wrong.
    again missing the point: whatever you feel, about anything, what you do is still your choice. hell most men probably feel its very hard to say no to sex - entire instinctual wiring against it and everything - are you planning on giving men the same free pass for for acting on our emotions that you have no problem demanding for your gender? i'm not saying you absolutely have to get an abortion if the man doesn't want the child, i am saying that if this is the case, you are making a choice based on what you want and the consequences of that choice should be yours to handle.

    oh, and one more thing:
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I seriously don't know how anyone can think this is a major issue.
    you may be shocked to find out that issues that don't affect you yourself negatively can indeed be major by affecting other people negatively. that little fact is seemed to be missed throughout most of the above posters.

    take a hint: noticed how the women with sons do actually acknowledge this as a problem? because it can affect someone they love. and hey, i'll admit right here - that's actually my entire relations to feminism - i have loved ones who are women, i seem to gain one in every relationship so far, and i might even end up having a daughter at some point in my life, thus a society that is better for both men and women is a society that serves my indirect potential interests. otherwise i probably wouldn't give a crap.

    but this? this gender exclusive ability for compassion with only problems that might affect you? that's fucking bullshit.

    and just to clarify for those who might want to analyze my standing as personal in the hunt for ad hominems:

  8. #118
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    holy shit why is everyone missing the very same points blatantly pointed out by the article?

    why do you think is it ok to hold man to that when we do no longer hold woman to that?
    I really shouldn't post when I'm tired and stressed. I have a tendency in those circumstances to just throw out something provocative. I need to go to bed, but I'll make a point of making a more well thought out post in the near future.

  9. #119
    Society
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I really shouldn't post when I'm tired and stressed. I have a tendency in those circumstances to just throw out something provocative. I need to go to bed, but I'll make a point of making a more well thought out post in the near future.
    looking forward to it, and don't worry, i'm in a similar state (running on nothing but coffee) - and after catching up with this thread i was actually too tired to swing my eyes left and even notice who i was quoting when answering, so.. no generalization is based on any familiarity with anyone beyond what they wrote here, except maybe @cafe and @Ivy who were sort of part of making my point in the end of the post... though i'm not sure if i quoted them (edit: apparently i did).

  10. #120
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    18,540
    The world has change and now we have paternity testing.

    And a surprising number of men have discovered that the child they are providing for is not their own.

    This is a surprise because we have thought that men were more promiscuous than women. But paternity testing of DNA shows we are more equal than we thought.

Similar Threads

  1. Why is life not fair?
    By puzzle in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 06-18-2017, 06:33 PM
  2. [ESFP] What tips would you give to an extremely extroverted ESFP who is forced to be alone
    By prplchknz in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-29-2015, 02:35 PM
  3. [JCF] All is fair in love and war?
    By Hate in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 05-28-2010, 06:26 AM
  4. What is the Destructive Force of Belief?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-16-2009, 01:42 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO