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  1. #11
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Yeah, same here, I remember my first major clash with the purists of the anarchist movement over their definitions of anarchy and how it boiled down, pretty much, to a "significantly more radical than you" contest, much like middle class social climbers "significantly richer than you" contests, and both seemed to involve conspicious behaviour or consumer lifestyles more than anything else.

    The book "Rebel Sell", which attacked the radical anti-globalists of the nineties for professing complex and vague creedos in contrast to more mundane struggles surrounding defending existing welfare and wealth redistributive concessions, I think is spot on. There's just a few fair criticisms of it and most of them are to do with vision and motivation.
    Yeah... "I'm not post-modernist, I'm post-post modernist." "I'm not an anarchist, I'm a horizontalist." I've never been able to figure out what these distinctions mean, or why I'm not allowed to enjoy listening to the Beatles because they are "modernist."

    Its interesting to me because a lot of people who are only superficially acquainted with my thinking about politics will be pretty dismissive of my thinking as unreflective, emotive, reactionary but I've pretty much read every single source and author in the entire left wing lexicon from when I was about fourteen or earlier. I then read a lot of the very good underground magazine material which came out of what happened in the early to mid ninties in the UK, the changes which brought about "new labour" also had their parallel in radical circles.
    Yeah... again, that's the "anarchist box" that supposedly doesn't exist. I'm sure being a non-FP doesn't help things, either.

    I remember someone refering to it as the "left over left, left behind left and left out left", its only half a joke. The amount of stuff I've read about how much of the left wing activity in the UK protest scenes in nineties from the McLibel trial, anti-fascist action, roads protests, reclaim the streets and afterwards, was actually one way or another influenced by police infiltrators directly or indirectly is shocking.
    Curious... it would make sense, actually. I'd love to here more about this. Also.. what is the McLibel trial?

    I looked up that Rebel Sell book. It argues against the notion of rules being oppressive. Interesting. That may be a book for me.
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


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  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    Yeah... "I'm not post-modernist, I'm post-post modernist." "I'm not an anarchist, I'm a horizontalist." I've never been able to figure out what these distinctions mean, or why I'm not allowed to enjoy listening to the Beatles because they are "modernist."



    Yeah... again, that's the "anarchist box" that supposedly doesn't exist. I'm sure being a non-FP doesn't help things, either.



    Curious... it would make sense, actually. I'd love to here more about this. Also.. what is the McLibel trial?

    I looked up that Rebel Sell book. It argues against the notion of rules being oppressive. Interesting. That may be a book for me.
    The biggest left wing debates that took place around the nineties which felt were worthwhile included, the discussion around a pamphlet called "The Tyranny of Structurelessness" and a response called "The Tyranny of Tyranny", which actually ends with a brief discussion of masturbation and I've never figured out if that was deliberately or unintentionally ironic.

    The discussion was around how many of the purist groups or individuals couldnt organise anything because any time anything got organised and had the rudimentaries of structure and leadership that it was abandoned or rejected as betraying pure ideology.

    The original article, tyranny of structurelessness is here, it came out of the feminist movement but was a favourite with anarchists and socialists too, all the people concerned with grass roots, genuine, participatory, authentic, all those other watch words of organising:-

    http://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

    And here's the two articles:-

    http://www.afed.org.uk/publications/...-the-knot.html

    The other big interesting article was:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_...idgeable_Chasm

    Bookchin was a trotskyist who joined up with anarchism just in time to try and spark of a lot of struggles and infighting there too, I thought that his criticisms of anarchism as a lifestyle was interesting because of a lot of the punk scene at the time and people living drop out lifestyles who insisted their every move or thought was anarchy personified (I found out later that this could be considered something bookchin would've supported even).

    Anyway, I remember joining an e-mail list briefly in which someone asked about what the whole lifestyle vs social anarchism thing was and when it was explained to them they simply said, yeah, I think I do some of that and some of the other too. Seemed like the unbridgeable chasm was just bridged and the time spent on that whole discussion was all a waste.

    The McLibel case involved McDonalds in the UK using libel laws to silence criticism, at the time there was a website bulletin board which a lot of people visited and the group of liberals and anarchists, some of them were quakers, discussed things and reported about how McDonalds had employed private investigators to spy on their meetings, if the police infiltrators are included there was probably very few people actually at the meetings:-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLibel_Trial

    Here's an article about the police spying, this time on a family of the victim of a racist murder:-

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ce-family.html

    This case lead to subsequent investigations labelling the police service institutionally racist, it was the only explanation at the time for the incompetent handling of the investigation but there's been cases since which were not handled any more competently.

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