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  1. #61
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    What exactly does this right consist of?
    I may need to reflect on it longer, but the "inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are all contingent upon access to water, correct? That was quoted just in case one is viewing this from the standpoint of American capitalist ideals alone. Right to water is more fundamental than the need to have access to roads, education, national parks, police protection, fire protection, or legal defense when charged legally. Water should be the last right a society lets go of considering to be a public good.

    Imagine a world in which people have to pay for police or fire protection. Not everyone is entitled, right? Only those who can pay can report assault or rape charges, or have the fires in their townhomes extinguished? The well being of our fellow man is not a right, responsibility, or entitlement, but claiming ownership (finders keepers) of natural resources for corporate gain is a right? What entitles a corporation to own these things? Power? Might makes right? If that is the case, then revolution of the masses is simply the other side of that stick. If one wants to accept one side, you must face the consequences of the other side of that stick because it is likely inevitable.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I may need to reflect on it longer, but the "inalienable rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" are all contingent upon access to water, correct? That was quoted just in case one is viewing this from the standpoint of American capitalist ideals alone. Right to water is more fundamental than the need to have access to roads, education, national parks, police protection, fire protection, or legal defense when charged legally. Water should be the last right a society lets go of considering to be a public good.

    Imagine a world in which people have to pay for police or fire protection. Not everyone is entitled, right? Only those who can pay can report assault or rape charges, or have the fires in their townhomes extinguished? The well being of our fellow man is not a right, responsibility, or entitlement, but claiming ownership (finders keepers) of natural resources for corporate gain is a right? What entitles a corporation to own these things? Power? Might makes right? If that is the case, then revolution of the masses is simply the other side of that stick. If one wants to accept one side, you must face the consequences of the other side of that stick because it is likely inevitable.
    If there is a pond on your land, you own the water in the pond.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #63
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Chocolate, however...

  4. #64
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAVO View Post
    Chocolate, however...
    ...should be a public right because it is a public good.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #65
    Don't pet me. JAVO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    ...should be a public right because it is a public good.
    That's right!

  6. #66
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    ...should be a public right because it is a public good.
    I understand the two are not synonymous, but do you see any relationship between the two? If one's philosophy is that there are no individual rights, then the only pragmatic position for a debate opponent who does believe in individual rights is public good. I figured the individual rights debate could go too far afield, but perhaps it is at the core of this discussion.

    Do you believe there are intrinsic human rights? Or a set of non intrinsic rights that are still preferable for a society to agree upon? No rights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    If there is a pond on your land, you own the water in the pond.
    i think you are attempting to establish a scenario of personal ownership of water which can then be extended to a position of rights of ownership of it as a natural resource. Water in all scenarios has an ephemeral quality, so it could get redundant to respond with ways any water is temporary and connected to the larger global system of water.

    This entire discussion could possibly come down to a question of legitimizing intrinsic human rights or intrinsic rights of ownership. Why would the right to exist in the world be trumped by the right to exert ownership over external materials? Is there a way to legitimize that beyond a " might makes right" position?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In absence of water, a person dies. If a person isn't allowed to say alive, all concepts of rights seem moot.
    getting water too you requires infrastructure, building and maintaining that infrastructure, and devoting resources to do so, which requires the labor of people... and you are not inherently entitled for the labor of other people. really, i don't get what's the big deal is - that water is not a right is not exactly a far reaching notion - in most countries you pay for water.
    not to mention, fresh water is not a renewable resource, which means that by only accounting for current demand, we are actually not applying the appropriate scarcity. the real cost of fresh water is a lot higher in the long run.

    that's being said, bottled water takes this to a whole new level - demonstrating the brilliant power of branding. just let it sink in: people are actually paying for rebranded water. WATER! "the water i buy is so much better than everyone else's water!" is a real thought going through people's subconscious.... did i mention we're talking about water? FUCKING WATER! the genius, the oddacity... i love it!

  8. #68
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    getting water too you requires infrastructure, building and maintaining that infrastructure, and devoting resources to do so, which requires the labor of people... and you are not inherently entitled for the labor of other people. really, i don't get what's the big deal is - that water is not a right is not exactly a far reaching notion - in most countries you pay for water.
    not to mention, fresh water is not a renewable resource, which means that by only accounting for current demand, we are actually not applying the appropriate scarcity. the real cost of fresh water is a lot higher in the long run.

    that's being said, bottled water takes this to a whole new level - demonstrating the brilliant power of branding. just let it sink in: people are actually paying for rebranded water. WATER! "the water i buy is so much better than everyone else's water!" is a real thought going through people's subconscious.... did i mention we're talking about water? FUCKING WATER! the genius, the oddacity... i love it!
    Anyway, Brabek is saying we don't have the human right to waste water.

    The power of this meme is found not in what Brabek said in the video, but in the meaning people put into the title of the video.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #69
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I understand the two are not synonymous, but do you see any relationship between the two? If one's philosophy is that there are no individual rights, then the only pragmatic position for a debate opponent who does believe in individual rights is public good. I figured the individual rights debate could go too far afield, but perhaps it is at the core of this discussion.

    Do you believe there are intrinsic human rights? Or a set of non intrinsic rights that are still preferable for a society to agree upon? No rights?

    i think you are attempting to establish a scenario of personal ownership of water which can then be extended to a position of rights of ownership of it as a natural resource. Water in all scenarios has an ephemeral quality, so it could get redundant to respond with ways any water is temporary and connected to the larger global system of water.

    This entire discussion could possibly come down to a question of legitimizing intrinsic human rights or intrinsic rights of ownership. Why would the right to exist in the world be trumped by the right to exert ownership over external materials? Is there a way to legitimize that beyond a " might makes right" position?
    If you have a pond on your land, then you own the water in it as a natural resource - since the water is a resource that came from nature. It's ephemeral quality makes no difference here. Since water is composed of molecules that are not ephemeral, you could extend your argument to anything and claim that nobody can own a natural resource.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #70
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    getting water too you requires infrastructure, building and maintaining that infrastructure, and devoting resources to do so, which requires the labor of people... and you are not inherently entitled for the labor of other people. really, i don't get what's the big deal is - that water is not a right is not exactly a far reaching notion - in most countries you pay for water.
    not to mention, fresh water is not a renewable resource, which means that by only accounting for current demand, we are actually not applying the appropriate scarcity. the real cost of fresh water is a lot higher in the long run.
    Staying alive costs resources. Keeping other people alive costs resources. And the preservation of anything you consider a right costs resources. Even the right to be able to claim anything as your property requires someone to enforce that system of property rights, which is in turn almost always maintained by a kind of government, which in turn gets the funding from taxes, which in turn are taking from the product of peoples' labor. That is society. To an extent I do think a person in a society should be getting some amount of what other people in that society are producing with their labor. In absence of this, you hardly have a society at all.

    I can see how you might argue that people shouldn't all be getting water that has been made potable, but at the very least people should all be able to get water that they can easily make potable.

    As for fresh water, I think that when something is both a necessity and exhaustible, it should be never be in the hands of a private profit seeking enterprise.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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