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  3. #103
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I've seen springs and underground water or rivers tapped before, they're interesting gizmos that can be rigged up. Someone did some funny photoshops of them here in Ireland when lots of different brands of "irish spring water" sprung up, usually for foreign or specialist markets (now that reminds me of all the charlatans selling water supposedly from miracle sites and the sites of apparitions to RCs years ago).

    I dont really have a strong affiliation in relation to this kind of thing either, I mean, I hate capitalism and I think it exists more in (revered, utopian) theory than in fact and this has always been the way of it, but even it has less detestable aspects than some alternatives.

    The world is messy too and were life is at stake and the circumstances are desperate the compromising of neatness and the principles of comfortable western consumers in order to cinch a deal for bare necessities is something I can deal with, as it happens (and people are free to disagree) I'm actually pretty practical and pragmatic despite having immoderate opinions and personal values.

    That said I really do think that free marketisation and free trade has short changed the many people and plunged some into desperate need they didnt experience before "development", the fact that the language of human rights is entering into it is a bit of a clue, as I've said.

    In relation to untreated natural springs I saw a TV show the other night about people in the states being able to "light" their water, particularly in fracking areas, the methane released or present in the water was something like forty times that what it usually would be, it had bubbles in it and the local population were complaining because they were farmers and had to feed their live stock and themselves the well water.

    Bizarrest thing to see someone setting their water on fire, if I was unclear as to how it was done I'd have thought it a miracle.
    Oh right, I had a response to this.

    I'm sure there are lots of 'correct' and 'less correct' ways of tapping a spring. Where I'm living, I think they basically just built a concrete box around where the water came out of the ground. The foolishly then covered the spring box with a ill fitting cover. Needless to say, my spring box is filled with fine dirt (not such a big deal, really) but also plenty of critters, crickets and the like. The original 1930s spring box was covered up with an old steel sign that someone probably found by the side of the road possibly during the Depression. Seriously. Probably not especially safe to drink. With a filter I shower in it.

    No fracking around here which I am thankful for. It's think it is questionably safe if they really focus on the safety as opposed to the 'drill baby drill', but...in practice?

    I think that inevitably the systems that people create to explain how things work are always vast simplifications. Try and extend them inappropriately (without compensating for real world complexity) and they don't work very well. Personally, I think that while some groups try to recognize this and come up with ways to approach reality more accurately, other groups instead ignore this and try to force conformity so everyone and everything fits the theory instead of the other way around. This can be a (big) mistake.

    In some ways I value systems, in other ways I scoff at reliance on them when normal people can just step up, handle the situation, and move on.

    I don't know about the unintended consequences of development, but I'm sure there are many. The flooding of the Yangzte in China to build the giant hydroelectric dam comes to mind - city folk got power, rural folk who have lived along the river for forever are now homeless.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    I think that inevitably the systems that people create to explain how things work are always vast simplifications. Try and extend them inappropriately (without compensating for real world complexity) and they don't work very well. Personally, I think that while some groups try to recognize this and come up with ways to approach reality more accurately, other groups instead ignore this and try to force conformity so everyone and everything fits the theory instead of the other way around. This can be a (big) mistake.

    In some ways I value systems, in other ways I scoff at reliance on them when normal people can just step up, handle the situation, and move on.

    I don't know about the unintended consequences of development, but I'm sure there are many. The flooding of the Yangzte in China to build the giant hydroelectric dam comes to mind - city folk got power, rural folk who have lived along the river for forever are now homeless.
    Those are good points.

    On the other hand there are differences between the systems which are derived from real experience and practical reason and those which are abstract and theoretical, more ideological, although they may have value because they provide a subject for critique and comparison even at that.

  5. #105

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    I was thinking about this thread the other day, when the Nazis, Communists and others like them attacked human rights they were counter attacked but when its capitalists pundits it doesnt quite play out the same way, why is that?

    If someone is poor it seems more unquestionable that they should be denied the necessities of life than if that denial happens on the basis of their not being aryan, proletarian, whatever?

    To the person going without the necessities it doesnt matter really why they are denied them just that they are.

    I've always remembered the observation, although I dont recall the author of it, that the nazis and communists both attempted to destroy religious traditions, such as not working on sundays, or even prohibit and destroy religious observation in more atrocious ways and didnt succeed but capitalism did without ever really seeking to do so from any fundamental or principled central tenet.

  6. #106
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Well I'd say there is a difference between saying "you can't get this because you're (unchangable trait)" and "well we can't give this to you because you're poor" unless there is truly no option for a person to not afford something (not having acceptable currency/ability to barter).

    People have been able to live without paying for water for millenia...it's just hard to do (depending where you live, at least). At some point they are reliant on the goodwill of other people to give them or on their own basic survival skills. Most people can drink rainwater and live. So I don't think people really have a right to filtered water (aka a product that someone else refined from natural materials which would have otherwise been unusable at their exspense). But I think that preventing them from tapping their own well, or boiling their own water, is inhumane.

    And considering how inexspensive treated water is, setting up a system so people can get it if they need it is IMO, the right thing to do. You're not going to die of thirst if you share your product.

    EDIT: Basically, it's not so much that they are poor, but that I find it unpalatable for people to live directly off the fruits of someone else's labor without doing something in return. I don't know how much we can should force people to give up their labor, even if it's for a good cause. Then again, if you want to go into business, maybe you should consider sticking to non-essentials, like chocolate - nobody needs chocolate to live.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    I think that the best solution is to provide knowledge and support to people so they can set up safe water on their own if they are unable to pay for a commercial/centralized distribution or there isn't a tax base to support that. Or donate water in the short term...but teach them to fish rather than just give them fish.

    Safe drinking water is an enormous service to provide. I think it's fair to pay people for their expertise, design, and maintence of systems which if done right can assure you say, don't get cholera. *If* you can afford it, I absolutely think it's fair you pay for it. That's not a small thing, that's a truly enormous, beneficial service.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Basically, this conversation takes on different tones depending on what group can't get water and if they are literally dying of thirst/getting massive infections or if paying for water is just hard. I doubt anyone in the US is literally dying of thirst unless there has been some sort of natural disaster.

    Or you're an illegal immigrant:
    http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...016513,00.html
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #109
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    so is the 90 some % of water inside this ceo a human right for him to keep or should it be liberated?
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  10. #110
    ndovjtjcaqidthi
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    In absence of water, a person dies. If a person isn't allowed to say alive, all concepts of rights seem moot.
    Moot = "Debatable".

    Just pointing that out. I hate when people use the word "Moot" like that. Learn the definition!

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