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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    If we leave trade free and leave access to water to trade, then we are indeed saying you can withhold water from people even in the event of near death. A person never has to trade anything with you, and the times they are interested in trading with you may be rare. That unfortunately makes trade a poor mechanism for this purpose.
    yes, that's how resource scarcity works. what is it that you propose? free water?

  2. #92
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    yes, that's how resource scarcity works. what is it that you propose? free water?
    I propose regulation from something with an interest other than making a profit and funded with taxes.
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  3. #93
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I propose regulation from something with an interest other than making a profit and funded with taxes.
    That makes sense to me...

    On the other hand, in the case that someone is actually dying of thirst, tax funded public infrastructure (public wells) or subsidies or supplemental water bill assistance can exist, and then would it matter who was selling the water?
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    That makes sense to me...

    On the other hand, in the case that someone is actually dying of thirst, tax funded public infrastructure (public wells) or subsidies or supplemental water bill assistance can exist, and then would it matter who was selling the water?
    Well lets examine how that might work, in the third world countries which have been victims of radical free market capitalist experiments water holes which were formally frequented by the local population and their animals are privatised and then fenced off or otherwise closed.

    Should the government take any actions, like those you have mentioned, to offset how unprepared the local population is for that sort of change, ie no currency, no means of acquiring it, they will be in violation of international trade agreements which made the original privatisation possible.

    The violation of these trade agreements means that they can expect penalties, from the world trade organisation, the world bank if they are in debt, and there's a good chance they will be because those this is exactly how and why most of these states accept these kinds of trade agreements in the first place, but also from international investors, banks, businesses because they can lose "business confidence" as a result.

    The opinion of Nestle is pretty clear from the video, need is not sufficient, human rights and survival is not sufficient grounds for anything which would be prejudicial to their profits, these are supernormal profits too so it beggers why they'd miss the small amounts of revenue in the scenario I mentioned.

    The attitudes of western libertarian pundits towards fundamental needs like water contrast with the ideas and choices which the same western libertarian pundits, especially the Rand Kiddies, will make with respect of certain luxuries or fast moving consumer goods, such as music, film, books even with the advent of e-readers.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I propose regulation from something with an interest other than making a profit and funded with taxes.
    That's hard to do, are you suggesting that some popular sovereignty fix or something like that would work?

    In theory I like the idea too, although its very, very late in the day to think that rudimentary democracy let alone more activist arrangements would be successful.

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    One thing I'm going to say, which probably wont please anyone in any of the more political or idealistic camps, is that there are differences between the corporate managers of monopolised and privatised or "pillaged" water resources.

    Consider it a lesser off two evils arrangement if you like but the French corporations which have monopolised some of the third world's resources have proven less pernicious than their western rivals, such as Nestle, their brand of capitalism is often, apparently, less vicious. I dont know if that is a reflection of business culture differences or if the particular vicious mindset of companies such as Nestle reflects desperation about market share and revenues.

    I'm not an investor but if I was, and a powerful one, and thought that companies talked that talk and walked that walk and had to adopt those practices to break even I'd be less convinced that they were a good bet and good business and more convinced that they were bullies, covering up for decline and failure.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I propose regulation from something with an interest other than making a profit and funded with taxes.
    the terminator? look, governmental organizations have economical pressures of a different sorts: just like the employees of companies, their employee's also like to pay rent and hope for affording the down payment on the next house with an extra room because someone's expecting (for instance). to do this, they need to do two things: keep their seats at minimum, and extend horizontally in order to justify vertical room (essentially creating more departments to have more heads of departments). as a result, government organizations are under constant internal pressure to justify as much of a budget as possible to their superiors.

    it's not that there isn't a profit, it's simply that the profit is gained differently, with altogether different results. now, in some cases some those side effects are actually positive - specifically, when the service they provide is only as scarce as the people providing it. public education for instance. fresh water, however, is not such a case - it's anything but such a case. it's a resource which is actually more scarce in the long run than current supply indicate.

    now, say what you want about the shmock which is the nestle CEO or how ridiculous rebranded water is, the fact is, it is doing exactly what our children and our children's children need the system to do - raising the price of water. it is a funny counter intuitive situation where we need to create fake scarcity in order to get a tad closer to the genuine long term scarcity.

    essentially, the more expensive we make fresh water, the more competitive distillation plants become relatively to fresh water pumps. it is also worthy to note here that our monopolization of freshwater resources is a huge cause of species extinction, and this creates some actual hope that their utter depletion can be avoidable.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Well lets examine how that might work, in the third world countries which have been victims of radical free market capitalist experiments water holes which were formally frequented by the local population and their animals are privatised and then fenced off or otherwise closed.

    Should the government take any actions, like those you have mentioned, to offset how unprepared the local population is for that sort of change, ie no currency, no means of acquiring it, they will be in violation of international trade agreements which made the original privatisation possible.

    The violation of these trade agreements means that they can expect penalties, from the world trade organisation, the world bank if they are in debt, and there's a good chance they will be because those this is exactly how and why most of these states accept these kinds of trade agreements in the first place, but also from international investors, banks, businesses because they can lose "business confidence" as a result.

    The opinion of Nestle is pretty clear from the video, need is not sufficient, human rights and survival is not sufficient grounds for anything which would be prejudicial to their profits, these are supernormal profits too so it beggers why they'd miss the small amounts of revenue in the scenario I mentioned.

    The attitudes of western libertarian pundits towards fundamental needs like water contrast with the ideas and choices which the same western libertarian pundits, especially the Rand Kiddies, will make with respect of certain luxuries or fast moving consumer goods, such as music, film, books even with the advent of e-readers.
    Well, I don't know much about how things work with trade agreements and penalties. That sounds like a crap deal. I still haven't been able to watch the video, I don't have bandwith for it.

    I wasn't thinking about areas where people are unable to pay for water/barter wasn't possible. More like...private wells open to the public who have some (not nessesarily a lot) of money. That doesn't make the needs of people in those situations illegitimate, but it's just different than what I was talking about.

    Currently I live in the mountains. I have a spring box for water that I use for showering and cleaning, but it's questionably unclean so I don't drink the water often. Someone about 10 minutes down the road built a spring box and it runs down a pipe that lets the water fly through the air and drain into a ditch, just right there on the roadside. There's a sign says it's untested water etc etc, but it's clean tasting and cold and I regularly fill up jugs there. There is no cost, someone just built it, and now it exists for anyone to use.

    That said, if the was a donation jar, or a toll of some sort, I would gladly pay for it, after all someone spent the money to build the spring box. On a slightly larger scale, you'd have a worker collecting tolls or filling jugs and sending them out on trucks. That's what I'm thinking about when I think "private well."

    I don't have any particular politcal affiliation or dog in this fight, FWIW, I know it's really common for people to get into these free trade type discussions with a very strong political underpinning, but I'm just asking questions...
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  9. #99
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    Just saw the op vid and skipped a few pages, apologies if this has already been covered.

    I thought it was interesting that the same company who would like to privatise water as a 'foodstuff' is also willing to steal it. Assuming, of course, this is true.

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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    Well, I don't know much about how things work with trade agreements and penalties. That sounds like a crap deal. I still haven't been able to watch the video, I don't have bandwith for it.

    I wasn't thinking about areas where people are unable to pay for water/barter wasn't possible. More like...private wells open to the public who have some (not nessesarily a lot) of money. That doesn't make the needs of people in those situations illegitimate, but it's just different than what I was talking about.

    Currently I live in the mountains. I have a spring box for water that I use for showering and cleaning, but it's questionably unclean so I don't drink the water often. Someone about 10 minutes down the road built a spring box and it runs down a pipe that lets the water fly through the air and drain into a ditch, just right there on the roadside. There's a sign says it's untested water etc etc, but it's clean tasting and cold and I regularly fill up jugs there. There is no cost, someone just built it, and now it exists for anyone to use.

    That said, if the was a donation jar, or a toll of some sort, I would gladly pay for it, after all someone spent the money to build the spring box. On a slightly larger scale, you'd have a worker collecting tolls or filling jugs and sending them out on trucks. That's what I'm thinking about when I think "private well."

    I don't have any particular politcal affiliation or dog in this fight, FWIW, I know it's really common for people to get into these free trade type discussions with a very strong political underpinning, but I'm just asking questions...
    I've seen springs and underground water or rivers tapped before, they're interesting gizmos that can be rigged up. Someone did some funny photoshops of them here in Ireland when lots of different brands of "irish spring water" sprung up, usually for foreign or specialist markets (now that reminds me of all the charlatans selling water supposedly from miracle sites and the sites of apparitions to RCs years ago).

    I dont really have a strong affiliation in relation to this kind of thing either, I mean, I hate capitalism and I think it exists more in (revered, utopian) theory than in fact and this has always been the way of it, but even it has less detestable aspects than some alternatives.

    The world is messy too and were life is at stake and the circumstances are desperate the compromising of neatness and the principles of comfortable western consumers in order to cinch a deal for bare necessities is something I can deal with, as it happens (and people are free to disagree) I'm actually pretty practical and pragmatic despite having immoderate opinions and personal values.

    That said I really do think that free marketisation and free trade has short changed the many people and plunged some into desperate need they didnt experience before "development", the fact that the language of human rights is entering into it is a bit of a clue, as I've said.

    In relation to untreated natural springs I saw a TV show the other night about people in the states being able to "light" their water, particularly in fracking areas, the methane released or present in the water was something like forty times that what it usually would be, it had bubbles in it and the local population were complaining because they were farmers and had to feed their live stock and themselves the well water.

    Bizarrest thing to see someone setting their water on fire, if I was unclear as to how it was done I'd have thought it a miracle.

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