User Tag List

First 31112131415 Last

Results 121 to 130 of 172

  1. #121
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's clearly financially not the case.
    The systems are equally broken.

    Luckily not everyone uses our entitlement system like they do our healthcare system.

    That accounts for the discrepancy in expense.

    Just because the system isn't as large as the largest sector of public spending makes it no less broken.

    The military has been cut by 500 bill over the next decade. Taxes have been increased on the wealthy, and the payroll tax holiday has ended.

    We've sacrificed our golden calves, it's time for you to sacrifice yours.

  2. #122
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,559

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It's actually much more difficult to cut entitlement spending than it is to cut military spending.
    The sequester pretty clearly demonstrates this.
    Do you know anyone who works for DoD? All the sequester demonstrates is that there are very dumb ways to implement even the best idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It is extremely difficult to cut PROPER military spending. It is cut in all the wrong ways. This is what I am saying. The parts we could truly live without and still function are the parts people don't want us to touch.
    Yes. Even (especially?) here, we see the influence of big corporations who want to preserve their income and influence at all costs. They are not motivated by any sense of patriotism or desire to advance national security, just the bottom line. The "free market", of course, allows this and even encourages it.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    From your personal circumstances, it sounds like your family is entirely deserving of the received benefits, and as such fall completely outside of the argument I've been making.

    The reforms to our entitlement system are just as necessary as those to Healthcare.
    So what proportion of those receiving entitlement benefits would you say fall into the "deserving" category, like Kyuuei's folks, and what proportion is fraud? If someone can find a way to reform the social safety net such that fraud is reduced, benefits go only to those with genuine need, and they are in turn helped to become self-sufficient, I would support it. Few people disagree with this goal, but few can agree on how best to reach it.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #123
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,909

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The systems are equally broken.

    Luckily not everyone uses our entitlement system like they do our healthcare system.

    That accounts for the discrepancy in expense.

    Just because the system isn't as large as the largest sector of public spending makes it no less broken.
    No, people here are arguing it isn't broken for different reasons. What it does indicate is that even if it were broken, it wouldn't be as important/urgent/serious/whatever word you want to use. Not by a mile.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The military has been cut by 500 bill over the next decade. Taxes have been increased on the wealthy, and the payroll tax holiday has ended.

    We've sacrificed our golden calves, it's time for you to sacrifice yours.
    Wasn't the annual cost of the defense department somewhere near 600 billion? So 500 billion over a decade is 50 billion a year. 50 billion off of nearly 600 billion isn't that impressive. But I will grant you that it is vastly more impressive than the tax increases you're crowing about. Those were trivial.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  4. #124
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Do you know anyone who works for DoD?
    Several people. A couple of whom have been furloughed.

    Yes. Even (especially?) here, we see the influence of big corporations who want to preserve their income and influence at all costs. They are not motivated by any sense of patriotism or desire to advance national security, just the bottom line. The "free market", of course, allows this and even encourages it.
    That's just the way the world works, especially in DC.

    It's all about jobs. Defense contracts create jobs in congressional districts.

    If the reps and senators representing those jobs don't fight to keep them, they get voted out of office. Simple as that.

    Unless you have some way of changing that calculus railing against it is about as effective as cursing gravity.

    So what proportion of those receiving entitlement benefits would you say fall into the "deserving" category, like Kyuuei's folks, and what proportion is fraud? If someone can find a way to reform the social safety net such that fraud is reduced, benefits go only to those with genuine need, and they are in turn helped to become self-sufficient, I would support it. Few people disagree with this goal, but few can agree on how best to reach it.
    Before giving my best estimate I have a question for you...

    Because it will be difficult to determine who qualifies and who doesn't, should we not even try?

    It's like the whole teacher evaluation issue... because it's difficult many (with incentives to keep the status quo for teachers) would prefer that we not even try.

    Now to my estimation, I suspect that between 10% and 20% of current participants should not qualify for those benefits for one reason or another.

    This is just my rough estimation, but it would actually not be that difficult to conduct and in depth analysis of the numbers and come to a reasonable conclusion on the issue.

    I think we've let too many middle class folks access the programs to the detriment of the truly needy, who may not have as easy a time filling out the applications correctly.

  5. #125
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Completely agreed with the first part.

    What I don't understand is how you define food as being the moon and the stars. No one is asking for 4 star chefs, gourmet meals.. Just organic, non-toxic, non-carcinogenic, reliable food sources. Considering what a bunch of hoopla everyone makes over health costing Americans so much money, you'd think that something that every dietitian, physician, pediatrician, and health care expert agrees prevents disease, illness, and death (i.e. eating) is a WAY cheaper, more conservative approach to epidemic spending problems and concerns that exceed just food itself (i.e. crime because people are resorting to it to feed themselves or others, and emergency room trips because we're obligated to treat anyone who walks in regardless of funding).

    American grocery stores throw away more than enough food to feed the hungry. With proper preparation on the day of suggested sale, they could serve or conserve a majority of that food to feed the homeless and hungry without costing the government a cent extra. It wouldn't be awesome stellar food, but it'd be good food. Instead of the government making it mandatory that they not throw away food (just an example, I'm not saying this should happen), the way it is now people dig through dumpsters to grab it for free (there's a whole documentary on that lifestyle) to do this for themselves, and/or expose the hungry to all sorts of pathogens and, of course, there's the obvious and clear neglect of the entire fact that there's food available, and hungry people, and nothing being done about it.

    Food stamps are not the only way to feed people, but food stamps are not costing the government the money everyone thinks it is. The program is there for a damn good reason. People pick on the easy, small things, because the bigger things require work. Look how easy it was to cut the food stamp budget versus the military spending that EVERYONE knows is out of control? It's a convenience thing, it has nothing to do with actual statistics or numbers.
    I agree with that, so much of the fiscal conservative narrative surrounds telling people they've been spoiled and spoiled for so long and its become unsustainable, unaffordable and they all have to grow up and recognise.

    The thing is that if that's spoiling, the very, very barest necessities, it says something either about how greedy the fiscal conservatives constituency is or how desperate things really are.

    In the case of the former people would I hope eventually get pissed off with that, there's none of the people complaining loudest about the condition of the least well off who'd switch places with them but they seem so envious of what little they have, in the case of the later its pretty serious if the supposedly richest and mightest nation on earth cant afford that meagre arrangement.

    Roll on Chinese hegemony if that's the case.

  6. #126
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    No, people here are arguing it isn't broken for different reasons. What it does indicate is that even if it were broken, it wouldn't be as important/urgent/serious/whatever word you want to use. Not by a mile.
    It may be important to those who pay 70% of all taxes (also known as the wealthy), as opposed to those whose tax burdens are much less onerous.

    It's like you have no capability of understanding a differing point of view. You frequently argue that I don't know any poor folks. I do and went to public high school with most of them.

    They tend to be more stridently conservative than I am.

    The rest of the country (ie the vast swath of centrists) align much more closely with my moderate conservative views than they do your decidedly more outer wing views.

    Your views are farther to the left among Democrats than mine are to the right among Republicans.

    Wasn't the annual cost of the defense department somewhere near 600 billion? So 500 billion over a decade is 50 billion a year. 50 billion off of nearly 600 billion isn't that impressive. But I will grant you that it is vastly more impressive than the tax increases you're crowing about. Those were trivial.
    If those taxes were coming out of your bank account you might actually care.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The military has been cut by 500 bill over the next decade. Taxes have been increased on the wealthy, and the payroll tax holiday has ended.

    We've sacrificed our golden calves, it's time for you to sacrifice yours.
    And what would that look like?

    Just trying to move away from the emotionally charged vagaries to the practical and real picture here.

    How do people dependent on food stamps manage without them? You envisaging a return to subsistance farming with people pulling up the pavings to grow potatoes or maize? Or are people going to climb into bed and starve quietly?

  8. #128
    Tempbanned
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Enneagram
    8w9
    Posts
    14,031

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    How do people dependent on food stamps manage without them? You envisaging a return to subsistance farming with people pulling up the pavings to grow potatoes or maize? Or are people going to climb into bed and starve quietly?
    Because they made too much, or are too lazy to reasonably qualify for them in the first place.

    The only people dependent on them that I would kick off the program would be those physically and mentally able to look for work or do community service (without extenuating circumstances) who chose not to.

    They can beg, or steal and be dealt with accordingly.

    We have soup kitchens for a reason.

  9. #129
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    There are alternatives to the food stamps idea, what if a government decided to take shares in or subsidise bakeries, butchers or fish mongers so everyone could have as much meat, loaves and fishes as they wanted?

    The water in my part of the world, despite the capitalist pirates trying to plunder and pillage that particular part of the public sector for some time, is provided by a government provider and no one fills their bath tubs or seeks to hoard it in any way or drink it excessively.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    MBTI
    ESTJ
    Enneagram
    9 so/sx
    Posts
    21,633

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Because they made too much, or are too lazy to reasonably qualify for them in the first place.

    The only people dependent on them that I would kick off the program would be those physically and mentally able to look for work or do community service (without extenuating circumstances) who chose not to.

    They can beg, or steal and be dealt with accordingly.

    We have soup kitchens for a reason.
    Yeah, I figured that'd be your view, I hope you're always fortunate enough not to have to live in the manner you so easily recommend to others.

Similar Threads

  1. how to get super spicy food in Thai restaurants?
    By UnitOfPopulation in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 04-25-2016, 06:22 AM
  2. How did you get the politics you did
    By Zergling in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 63
    Last Post: 01-21-2016, 06:06 PM
  3. More Americans Added to Food Stamps Than Find Jobs
    By Zarathustra in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 09-22-2012, 10:27 PM
  4. USA States With High Unemployment Outsourcing Food Stamp Services
    By heart in forum Politics, History, and Current Events
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 02-17-2010, 07:23 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO