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  1. #101
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If by wealthy folks you mean Hedge fund managers in NY then I agree.

    But if you mean, dentists and small business owners, pediatricians and architects then I heartily disagree.
    Let's see, average yearly income:

    Architect: $73K
    Pediatrician: $154K
    Small Business Owner: $100k
    Average US Median Income: $51k

    I wouldn't call the groups you call out super rich, but they are all doing significantly better than average. Here's a chart of US income over time by quintiles (and top 1%), expressed by household income rather than individual income:


  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Let's see, average yearly income:

    Architect: $73K
    Pediatrician: $154K
    Small Business Owner: $100k
    Average US Median Income: $51k

    I wouldn't call the groups you call out super rich, but they are all doing significantly better than average.
    And they have lost just as much as everyone else.

    Business is down by about half for most of the dentists I've talked to.

    Are you making more than half of what you were in '07?

  3. #103
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    Sorry your not a chemical engineer, or a lawyer or doctor.

    It's not their fault your resentful.

  4. #104
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The program grew from 2.8 million enrollees in '69 to 17.1 million in '00.

    Between '00 and '08 it grew to 28.2 million.

    From '09 to '12 it went from 28.2 million to 46.6 million

    In four years the program grew by 18.4 million participants.
    Yes, but in the big picture, it's still sort of like telling me I've gone from paying 25 cents a year to 50 cents a year in 5 years. I mean, wow, that's a staggering 100% increase! But 50 cents is still chump change. There are much bigger costs out there, some with clear problems to fix, and some that have a questionable purpose in the first place.

    And a growing population with growing inequality should indeed result in more people receiving food stamps. The inequality thing is important because you keep fussing over the recession having ended, without considering that a sheer increase in inequality can put more people in poverty, and everything I've seen indicates that increases in inequality have been moving along in full force.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We are obligated (by treaty) to subsidize the security needs of much of the rest of the world.
    We can make treaties, and we can dissolve them. We can write laws, and we can repeal them. So seem to be suggesting that our treaty obligations are of higher president than our obligation to our own people in need.[/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We also benefit economically from a world that is stabilized by the projection of US power overseas. What tangible benefit does the country see from paying to feed those too lazy to feed themselves.

    Except disincentivizing work that is.
    The benefit is taking money from areas where it is excessively concentrated and yielding little utility and instead redistributing it so that potentially productive members of society don't end up being weak links who are economic liabilities. This concept applies both to direct welfare as much as it does to funding public goods like education or infrastructure. You don't seem to be considering that a safety net might allow people to continue to be productive and climb to even greater productivity rather than disincentivizing productivity.

    Poor people don't need more incentive to work. Those who would languish in welfare for the rest of their lives are people who would languish without welfare (and probably still find a way to cost you money). I think those people are common enough to be a serious economic concern. Being poor enough to need this sort of thing is miserable. That misery is incentive for a typical person. Again, it just seems like you have no idea what poverty is like.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It's available from the cradle to the grave, I'm not assuming everyone using the program stays on it that long.
    Since you seem to have no idea, you might want to look into whether or not it's even half the population, or less than half. It's not a small detail. It could reflect significantly on how much money is being lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm only talking about those too lazy to look for a job.

    They are capable of helping themselves, they just choose not too, and should be treated as such.

    The rest of your answer falsely assumes that I only mean those who actually have a job. Looking for a job should be enough.
    How do you measure looking for a job? How long can someone look? What if someone is in circumstances that complicate a job search?

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The enrollees in the SNAP program have not declined even as the recession has receded. Every one has had to sacrifice something.
    I haven't noticed corporations and the rich sacrificing anything. Like I side, inequality is still getting worse, and as Cafe pointed out, the so-called recovery has been heavily weighed toward the top and has hardly even touched the bottom.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We have higher tax rates on the wealthy. Something you continually fail to acknowledge. The payroll tax holiday was ended striking the middle class.
    I have never failed to acknowledge that this country has a progressive taxation rate. It's just that our tax rates, particularly our real tax rights are not progressive or just generally high enough in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    But even though the recession is receding, we have still seen absolutely zero reduction in the entitlement programs created to combat the down turn.
    For the third time, that inequality thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Everyone else has had to share in the burden. With the cuts already occurring everywhere else, it's time for entitlement reform.
    No, not everyone has shared. The privileged have not shared the burden equally.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    It will be fun to watch the ACA continue to unravel under its own convoluted weight.

    See you in '14.
    In the long run, I suspect any outcome in 2014 is going to be a loss for most of us.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How do you measure looking for a job? How long can someone look? What if someone is in circumstances that complicate a job search?
    As long as it takes.

    Too bad. Sometimes you have to get down off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge and get the hell over it.

  6. #106
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    I've got a question.

    Do you think everyone should make $50,000 instead of some making more and some making less?

  7. #107
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I've got a question.

    Do you think everyone should make $50,000 instead of some making more and some making less?
    No. I just don't think anyone should have more money than can be humanly appreciated or that anyone should have to be a vagabond. It's just a window, and I think a rather big one, that can have any amount of variation within it.

    I can't think of a feasible way to give everyone the same income. On the other hand, what I'm suggesting is beyond feasible, it is closer to optimal than the alternatives.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #108
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    We're on food stamps. Well, my parents are. They get to eat off of $3.30 a day each currently.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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  9. #109
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    As long as it takes.

    Too bad. Sometimes you have to get down off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge and get the hell over it.
    Kind of hard to think about getting a job when you're hungry. Or, ya know, when the job market refuses to hire you because you grew up in a generation where college degrees and computers weren't really available to common everyday people and those guys can't even get jobs right now. Or when diseases stop you from the work you spent your whole life in.

    I think that your view of things is too narrow-minded. The question isn't whether rich people should make as much as they do.. or whether they're actually giving their fair share or not. At the end of the day. We're the god damned United States of America. Having anyone go hungry under our roof is just wrong on all fronts. We're educated, developed, in an Information Era, there is no reason we should suck so much at the most basic of humanities. I don't know why Americans still think that their country is above the deep seated issues of poverty and hunger. People still think hunger is an African problem, or a Haitian problem, something farther away. The people that are hungry here are just lazy assholes, or something, who knows, but they sure as fuck don't feel like working, that's for sure!

    Sociology 101 states that people who are too hungry, lack shelter, etc. cannot focus on the anything above the needs for survival. Work and money are included in that. You actually have to be PAST survival mode to start focusing on luxuries like work. That is human nature, science backed and research certified.

    Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of happiness is what we say are rights for everyone. You pretty much cannot live without food and safe water. And not shit food either. Nutritious food that actually helps your body.

    As I said, my parents get $3.30 a day each. That's $6.60 a day for the household. They claim two people on that.. but we're actually feeding 3-6 people at any given time, not including grandchildren that visit. We can currently provide nutritious meals for everyone on $6.60 a day. I don't think I could do it on half of that, though. People on food stamps aren't buying luxury milks and cheeses and shit. A lot of them are feeding more than they're actually able to claim. So people like me, who cannot claim it because I am making income, but I'm using all of that income to help sustain my parents, can actually afford to eat healthy meals while I'm doing all of this.

    Sorry if I'm making it too personal, but this is a personal subject. This is real people, affected by this sort of thing. There's more going on than just the money. I find it so odd that no one complains about how expensive all the shit in the white house is that no one hardly ever touches, but they're so quick to complain about money for FOOD. Not luxury money. Food. It's like, the most essential thing ever.
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  10. #110
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    If by wealthy folks you mean Hedge fund managers in NY then I agree.

    But if you mean, dentists and small business owners, pediatricians and architects then I heartily disagree.
    What I've read most recently says about the top ten percent of households have recovered. I think that would include most of the people you've listed. Because the top ten percent of earners in the US make $113,000/year. Not sure if that is per person or per household, but I would imagine that dentists and doctors, at least, earn $113,000/year individually or close to it. I don't really know how much those professions generally make, though.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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