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  1. #31
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Good point. Although I would never begrudge Americans doing a little soul searching on this matter.

    I think it would be a good idea for the US to reconsider how much it intervenes (or invades). However, I would just be concerned that that approach leads too far towards cultural relativism. There is a danger of the US turning their back on human rights abuses, because "that's just how they do things in that country". There are some things you have to take a stand on. In fact, there may be a moral imperative to intervene in certain situations, if you are capable of doing so (eg. possessing sufficient finances and military strength).

    Besides, how would this relate to a situation like Syria? The rebels are asking for help and the Syrian government is telling everyone to stay out of it.

    I do sympathise with the difficulty the US faces as the world's superpower because there's so much scrutiny and criticism from the international community. I'm sure that sometimes it must feel like, "we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't".
    This is always the case, in my opinion.

    You bring up interesting points. However I am focusing on the topic of the thread "Exporting Democracy is why the World resents us" Unfortunately I am unable to proceed with the points made in the link (I only skimmed them over) provided because it is a straw man argument. I think the subject of "Why the world hates us (Americans)" is interesting and worthy of discussion, if it is correct, but I'd like specific evidence of this hate to be presented: Soandso says so, some polls, excerpts from other countries periodicals/TV etc. While we're at it, please define hate and "whole". Pat Buchanan is basically claiming to be the spokesperson for the world.

    Another interesting topic could be, why is he framing the topic the way he is? Alas, a matter for another thread, in my opinion.
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Gawd, did I just agree with Pat Buchanan on something?
    No kidding. I'm not sure that the "goal" was ever really to promote democracy -- it's always been more (if not completely) about protecting US influence and/or expanding a power base (including natural resources == Oil). In some cases, that's resulted in good things (Solidarity in Poland, for example, as was mentioned above). But in other cases, it's been counterproductive, and often tragic.

    In this case, Pat's right -- even if it makes me squirm a bit to agree with him.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #33
    Level 8 Propaganda Bot SpankyMcFly's Avatar
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    ¨Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.¨

    The World Hates Us:

    The fact of the matter is that the ¨world¨ does not ¨hate¨ the U.S. According to the latest (reported March 13, 2013) World Gallup Poll those foreign citizens surveyed in 130 countries, the median approval of U.S. leadership stood at 41% & 25% disapproval. http://www.gallup.com/poll/161201/le...rldwide.aspx#1 Oh, by the way, those approval ratings are tied for 1st place (and those numbers are a decline from the prior year!), with Germany. Of the 130 countries surveyed 31 (page 2 of above link) had a higher disapproval rating than approval, hate? I doubt that in all instances, but lets say it means that. Here is a list of those countries


    WTF?! Bangladesh and Sri Lanka?! Why do they keep making our textiles then! Whatever.

    Because We Export Democracy:

    Unfortunately that particular poll did not ask those who disapproved ¨why¨ they did so. That said, there are other polls on Gallup World showing why some of those 31 countries ¨disapprove¨ of the U.S. ¨Iranians Feel Bite of Sanctions, Blame U.S., Not Own Leaders¨ http://www.gallup.com/poll/160358/ir...n-leaders.aspx This article discusses the reasons why the 10 countries that ¨hate¨ us the most based on the latest U.S.-Global Leadership Project, a partnership between Meridian International Center and Gallup. http://247wallst.com/2013/03/13/ten-...-america-most/ Guess what? Not a single one says anything about Exporting Democracy. That concept is mostly an ¨American¨ perspective.

    Implied Reason For War In Iraq:

    I believe the whole point of Pat Buchanan making these misstatements and offering no supporting evidence was to support his political views. Specifically a less interventionist U.S. Additionally, I think the whole ¨Exporting Democracy¨ angle is a giant ego defense mechanism of the American psyche as pertains to the Iraq War. ¨We¨ f***ed up and we know it.

    The fact of the matter is the war in Iraq was for big oil. I would be happy to argue this in another thread, with supporting evidence.

    ¨I Find Your Illogic And Lack Of Evidence Disturbing¨:

    Dear Mr. Buchanan,

    I share your political view of a less interventionist U.S. I´ve always thought this way. I consider myself a Socially Liberal-Libertarian and while we disagree on a host of social issues our views align when it comes to U.S. foreign policy. I have a request and a question for you. Would you please stop blowing smoke up my ass? I´m talking about the whole ¨The world hates us thing¨ not to mention our disagreement on why we went to war in Iraq. My question for you is, where the f*** were you during the buildup to the war? *crickets*

    Spanky McFly
    "The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents... Some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age. " - H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #34
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Here is an excerpt from an excellent article by Pat Buchanan at The American Conservative:



    I totally agree with this assessment. Our presumption that our political system is better for every other country regardless of cultural differences in other parts of the world is ridiculous.

    This is why I'm such a big fan of winding down most US bases across the globe and relying on more fluid naval power for force projection.

    Your thoughts?
    Hoover blackmailed JFK. It was not about Levison.

  5. #35
    Sweet Ocean Cloud SD45T-2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Good point. Although I would never begrudge Americans doing a little soul searching on this matter.

    I think it would be a good idea for the US to reconsider how much it intervenes (or invades). However, I would just be concerned that that approach leads too far towards cultural relativism. There is a danger of the US turning their back on human rights abuses, because "that's just how they do things in that country". There are some things you have to take a stand on. In fact, there may be a moral imperative to intervene in certain situations, if you are capable of doing so (eg. possessing sufficient finances and military strength).
    The trick is being able to tell which problems are practical to fix and which aren't.

    I think nation building in Afghanistan was a mistake. The Taliban was largely wiped out in just over a month, and I think that should have been the end of operations. It has never been a particularly cohesive or functional country. I would like it to be a united democracy, but I don't think that's a realistic goal.

    Besides, how would this relate to a situation like Syria? The rebels are asking for help and the Syrian government is telling everyone to stay out of it.
    It's like Pappy said in Generation Kill; "Don't pet a burning dog".

    Assad is the Big Bad. That does not necessarily mean the people fightng him are the Big Good. http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion...Lk8kQd4rGHPoZM

    I do sympathise with the difficulty the US faces as the world's superpower because there's so much scrutiny and criticism from the international community. I'm sure that sometimes it must feel like, "we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't".
    Pretty much. I guess I'm somewhere between neocon and libertarian on these matters, sort of like Rand Paul. He's more lucid and realistic than his dad IMHO.
    1w2-6w5-3w2 so/sp

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  6. #36
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Here is an excerpt from an excellent article by Pat Buchanan at The American Conservative:

    I totally agree with this assessment. Our presumption that our political system is better for every other country regardless of cultural differences in other parts of the world is ridiculous.

    This is why I'm such a big fan of winding down most US bases across the globe and relying on more fluid naval power for force projection.

    Your thoughts?
    Do you consider democracy to be an inferior form of government? Or are the other forms inferior, but good enough for other nations whose populations are not bright or perhaps resourced enough to throw off their autocrats without help? Are certain cultures more deserving of monarchies or dictators?

    I've heard this idea of the world hating America from time to time. It always makes me wonder why then do so many people from other countries keep trying to come here, legally and otherwise. They can't effectively register their hatred with our government, but they could certainly vote with their feet, and their money. But they don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I think it would be a good idea for the US to reconsider how much it intervenes (or invades). However, I would just be concerned that that approach leads too far towards cultural relativism. There is a danger of the US turning their back on human rights abuses, because "that's just how they do things in that country". There are some things you have to take a stand on. In fact, there may be a moral imperative to intervene in certain situations,if you are capable of doing so (eg. possessing sufficient finances and military strength).
    The highlighted is critical. If we do not have the wherewithal (including the political and popular will) to address an international problem, we do more harm than good by trying.

    If we want to promote democracy, we should start by restoring it at home. Otherwise, whether intervention abroad is justified or not, we are just hypocrites.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #37
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    I think what amuses and terrifies me most about countries in general is the...seriousness of it all. I mean we basically have people, some of whom never left their schoolyards psychologically, running entire nations.

    It's insanity. The way in which decisions that shake millions of people, are decided by this small minority of individuals, many of who are no better than the inhabitants they seek to lead.

    It's so comical when you step back and look at it. All the repression, the bravado, the egos and arrogance, it's all squashed down to these small numbers of people who are both representative and unrepresentative of their own populations. It's bizarre and childish.

    Yet many don't seem to see it. All these structures and titles and offices and positions and authorities....it's pathetic, people throwing their weight around because they are unable to look at themselves once in a while.

    Most countries appear to me, including my own, as personifications of a child's sticky giant hand, grasping out for things it wants. Money, land, power, ideologies......it's all part and parcel of the same mindset.

    It's frightening.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    I think what amuses and terrifies me most about countries in general is the...seriousness of it all. I mean we basically have people, some of whom never left their schoolyards psychologically, running entire nations.

    It's insanity. The way in which decisions that shake millions of people, are decided by this small minority of individuals, many of who are no better than the inhabitants they seek to lead.

    It's so comical when you step back and look at it. All the repression, the bravado, the egos and arrogance, it's all squashed down to these small numbers of people who are both representative and unrepresentative of their own populations. It's bizarre and childish.

    Yet many don't seem to see it. All these structures and titles and offices and positions and authorities....it's pathetic, people throwing their weight around because they are unable to look at themselves once in a while.

    Most countries appear to me, including my own, as personifications of a child's sticky giant hand, grasping out for things it wants. Money, land, power, ideologies......it's all part and parcel of the same mindset.

    It's frightening.
    Well yes, if you look at it that way...
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  9. #39
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Well yes, if you look at it that way...
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #40

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    US be hated for a load of things besides foreign policy, I dont think any of the people who complain about the US would fare any better with Chinese, Russian or Canadian (got to know, got to know they be plotting up there) masters.

    The EU doesnt want to be the master of anything before anyone throws that up, I mean out, there. Seriously the people who imagine there's a French-German axis are laughable.

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