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Thread: IRS and the DOJ

  1. #41
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The whiskey rebellion is in no way analogous to what we are discussing here. Neither is the national guard enforcing Desegregation. Nor are Asian internment camps.

    We don't have precedent of the guns of the military being turned against the populace in the modern era.
    So because the people didn't fight back while guns were pointed at them, those events don't count? Sure...

    The idea that there has to be precedent for the government to turn the military on the populace is weak. Government monitoring of all citizens is unprecedented, but that's not stopping them. It won't stop the government when it comes to violence, either.

    Propaganda doesn't work as well when you are trying to convince the nation that as much as one third of the populace are terrorists. This is how it would go if it were a small group resisting, but good luck with that.

    The instant a citizen was killed for not giving up their guns, the gov't will have done the most to recruit rebels they can.
    What are you talking about?

    That said, propaganda has been used to convince people that 47% of Americans are lazy and that worked pretty well. Lots of people believe it, even people who are part of that 47%.

    The citizens in other countries aren't worth as much to the media as American citizens. Unless the gov't has complete control of the press before they crackdown on American citizens, I don't see gov't being able to stop the groundswell support those killed by the gov't would receive.

    Collateral damage brown people on the other side of the world are a damn sight different [to the media] than white people here.
    What is all of this nonsense about the media? The mainstream media is just a propaganda arm of the federal government. The government doesn't value anyone (unless they're wealthy), brown, white, foreign, or American. It's only a matter of time before the practices being used overseas are used on US soil.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So because the people didn't fight back while guns were pointed at them, those events don't count? Sure...

    The idea that there has to be precedent for the government to turn the military on the populace is weak. Government monitoring of all citizens is unprecedented, but that's not stopping them. It won't stop the government when it comes to violence, either.
    The country has fundamentally changed since the events you mention.

    Violence is much more abhorrent, and we are much more civilized than we used to be.

    We have a President arguing for gun control if it can save even one life (a ridiculous metric). How can our government return to violent oppression not seen in decades.

    The press has changed and the availability of information has changed. The global changes since WWII fundamentally alter the predictive nature of the precedents you mentioned, which is why I used the civil war instead.

    Because that is the kind of conflict we would have to have to rid the country of guns. And the way our government sits no, that is not even a remote possibility.


    What are you talking about?

    That said, propaganda has been used to convince people that 47% of Americans are lazy and that worked pretty well. Lots of people believe it, even people who are part of that 47%.
    The gap between vilifying a group with propaganda, and convincing the public to accept the murder of that same group is large enough to drive two trucks and a Queen Mary through.

    What is all of this nonsense about the media? The mainstream media is just a propaganda arm of the federal government. The government doesn't value anyone (unless they're wealthy), brown, white, foreign, or American. It's only a matter of time before the practices being used overseas are used on US soil.
    As unimpressed as I am with the modern media (doubly so given I'm a Republican) I bet their commitment to report whats going on supersedes their ideological leanings.

    This government worries me, but I don't think the only people that matter to our government are the wealthy. Last time I checked, despite our problems, we aren't the Congo.

    Our gov't worries me, but I don't think we're anywhere near the kind of abuses you describe.

    Although I can understand your opposing opinion.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The country has fundamentally changed since the events you mention.

    Violence is much more abhorrent, and we are much more civilized than we used to be.

    We have a President arguing for gun control if it can save even one life (a ridiculous metric). How can our government return to violent oppression not seen in decades.

    The press has changed and the availability of information has changed. The global changes since WWII fundamentally alter the predictive nature of the precedents you mentioned, which is why I used the civil war instead.

    Because that is the kind of conflict we would have to have to rid the country of guns. And the way our government sits no, that is not even a remote possibility.
    I don't know what your point is. But as for your line about violent oppression, I'll refer you to the drug war and the explosion in prison population since the 1980s.

    The gap between vilifying a group with propaganda, and convincing the public to accept the murder of that same group is large enough to drive two trucks and a Queen Mary through.
    1. Pre-WWII Germans probably would have said the same thing.
    2. I'm not arguing that the government is going to commit genocide on its own people, so I don't understand your point.

    As unimpressed as I am with the modern media (doubly so given I'm a Republican) I bet their commitment to report whats going on supersedes their ideological leanings.
    I don't think they're a propaganda arm because of ideology. They're a propaganda arm because that's how they advance their careers and gain status in their circles. Their motives are selfish, not ideological.

    This government worries me, but I don't think the only people that matter to our government are the wealthy. Last time I checked, despite our problems, we aren't the Congo.

    Our gov't worries me, but I don't think we're anywhere near the kind of abuses you describe.

    Although I can understand your opposing opinion.
    The Congo? That's pretty extreme.

    The only people who matter to government officials are the wealthy for at least two reasons (maybe more).
    1. They're able to donate tens of thousands of dollars to political campaigns
    2. If they were to be pursued (legally), they have the resources to make it really difficult. People tend to take the path of least resistance, and it's pretty much always easier to beat a poor person in court than a rich person, regardless of the merit of the case. So...
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't know what your point is. But as for your line about violent oppression, I'll refer you to the drug war and the explosion in prison population since the 1980s.


    1. Pre-WWII Germans probably would have said the same thing.
    2. I'm not arguing that the government is going to commit genocide on its own people, so I don't understand your point.
    The drug war was a voter approved policing issue. Sure it's had terrible consequences, but those consequences have been born by a group of limited scope. It's easier to argue for police action against criminals, when the vast majority of the public isn't friends with a black drug dealer.

    The tide is already turning against the drug war in the national debate so that kind of supports my argument. For the gov't to start a gun war against gun owners (who make up a much larger part of the populace) would be quite the heavy lift.

    Prohibiting the ownership of guns is liable to split this country the same way we split during the civil war.


    I don't think they're a propaganda arm because of ideology. They're a propaganda arm because that's how they advance their careers and gain status in their circles. Their motives are selfish, not ideological.
    Thats certainly a part of it, but your assumption about the media kind of assumes that none in the media will choose to do their job instead of spewing the approved story.

    Which I find far fetched.

    The Congo? That's pretty extreme.
    Yes it is extreme, about as extreme as a government not caring at all about the populace.

    I'm cynical, and I think many people in government could care less, but I think there are a lot of good folks in public service and elected office as well.

    The only people who matter to government officials are the wealthy for at least two reasons (maybe more).
    1. They're able to donate tens of thousands of dollars to political campaigns
    2. If they were to be pursued (legally), they have the resources to make it really difficult. People tend to take the path of least resistance, and it's pretty much always easier to beat a poor person in court than a rich person, regardless of the merit of the case. So...
    While both those points make logical sense, they seem quite extreme.

    Things would already be way worse, not as relatively nice as they are, if the government were as mal intentioned as you describe.

  5. #45
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    To clarify my point is this:

    The prohibition of gun ownership would start a shit fit with the populace that hasn't been seen since the civil war.

    Given that, the likelihood of the prohibition of gun ownership is quite small.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The drug war was a voter approved policing issue. Sure it's had terrible consequences, but those consequences have been born by a group of limited scope. It's easier to argue for police action against criminals, when the vast majority of the public isn't friends with a black drug dealer.

    The tide is already turning against the drug war in the national debate so that kind of supports my argument. For the gov't to start a gun war against gun owners (who make up a much larger part of the populace) would be quite the heavy lift.

    Prohibiting the ownership of guns is liable to split this country the same way we split during the civil war.
    I still don't understand your point. I agree that things would get crazy in this country if the 2nd amendment was threatened the way the 4th and 5th amendments have been threatened.

    The Patriot Act was voter approved just as much as the drug war was. I have no idea what your point is with that statement.

    Thats certainly a part of it, but your assumption about the media kind of assumes that none in the media will choose to do their job instead of spewing the approved story.

    Which I find far fetched.
    The mainstream media's job is to "spew" the approved story. Those who don't fall in line, like Soledad O'Brien, are fired. Others, like Cenk Uygur, resign.

    Yes it is extreme, about as extreme as a government not caring at all about the populace.
    No, not even close. This country is seriously lacking in empathy. Is it because we're so diverse? Perhaps, but I couldn't say for sure. Regardless, that empathy deficit is magnified in government and corporate culture.

    I'm cynical, and I think many people in government could care less, but I think there are a lot of good folks in public service and elected office as well.
    The few people who do care are relatively powerless. You don't get to the top in this country by being considerate.

    While both those points make logical sense, they seem quite extreme.

    Things would already be way worse, not as relatively nice as they are, if the government were as mal intentioned as you describe.
    This is phenomenon is more powerful today than it was in the past. The 1980s were the turning point. That was the decade where wealth became a deity. This trend has been going three decades. Inequality is increasing, so however nice things seem right now, they're going to get worse. If you're not wealthy, your going to have an even weaker voice in the future than today.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #47
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    To clarify my point is this:

    The prohibition of gun ownership would start a shit fit with the populace that hasn't been seen since the civil war.

    Given that, the likelihood of the prohibition of gun ownership is quite small.
    Okay...that pretty much echoes my point. The 2nd amendment is safe because that's the one amendment Republicans care about. It's the others that we have to worry about.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #48
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Best tweet of the day

    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

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